Liberal Forum

I am pro capitalist. From what I experienced first hand being involved in the ecig industry we have something else here in America. Its not free market. Its where the big fish control arms of the government that are suppose to be monitoring them. Corportism. In capitialism if you build a better mouse trap the world beats a path to your door. In America, if you build a better mousetrap, the makers of Decon and other anti rodent products use the FDA, DEA, IRS and other alphebet industries to attempt to make your product illegal. When that fails they simply make a similar product while criminalizing the distribution of the original inventors good.

Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014 5:46 pm » wrote:
They can be pseudo-private, but they come from a publicly regulated market, so...

i dont think so...i do not think you can have a stock market and free enterprise...one is the killer of the other...if you study your history it was rockerfeller and j.p. morgan trying to regulate the other out of business...it was morgan that won the day...and rockerfeller realized the need for gasoline...hell even edison fell prey to morgan...because morgan owned the majority of the stock. so edison electric became general electric....that is capitalism....

NeoConvict » 08 Apr 2014 5:50 pm » wrote:I am pro capitalist. From what I experienced first hand being involved in the ecig industry we have something else here in America. Its not free market. Its where the big fish control arms of the government that are suppose to be monitoring them. Corportism. In capitialism if you build a better mouse trap the world beats a path to your door. In America, if you build a better mousetrap, the makers of Decon and other anti rodent products use the FDA, DEA, IRS and other alphebet industries to attempt to make your product illegal. When that fails they simply make a similar product while criminalizing the distribution of the original inventors good.

The step you need to make in your understanding is to grasp that what you are lamenting is not a failure of capitalism but its success. The founders revolted as much against the british east india company - successful capitalism, not yet named - as they did against king george.

We need to emulate the founders. We need to outlaw WHATEVER name you want to give that crap on Wall Street. Name it petunia palunia, but OUTLAW it. Any attempt to "reform" is will be MANAGED BY THEM.

NeoConvict » 08 Apr 2014 5:50 pm » wrote:I am pro capitalist. From what I experienced first hand being involved in the ecig industry we have something else here in America. Its not free market. Its where the big fish control arms of the government that are suppose to be monitoring them. Corportism. In capitialism if you build a better mouse trap the world beats a path to your door. In America, if you build a better mousetrap, the makers of Decon and other anti rodent products use the FDA, DEA, IRS and other alphebet industries to attempt to make your product illegal. When that fails they simply make a similar product while criminalizing the distribution of the original inventors good.

exactly, and that is capitalism...that is not possible under free enterprise...but the irs isnt possible and neither is the federal reserve under free enterprise....

freedom begats free enterprise....free enterprise begats capitalism and capitalism begats socialism and socialism begats communism....communism begats slavery and slavery begats freedom...freedom begats free enterprise..........................................

bigsky » 08 Apr 2014 5:50 pm » wrote:
i dont think so...i do not think you can have a stock market and free enterprise...one is the killer of the other...if you study your history it was rockerfeller and j.p. morgan trying to regulate the other out of business...it was morgan that won the day...and rockerfeller realized the need for gasoline...hell even edison fell prey to morgan...because morgan owned the majority of the stock. so edison electric became general electric....that is capitalism....

Yes. If you think I am saying free enterprise and capitalism can coexist, you misread my meaning.

Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014 5:49 pm » wrote:
But but but. You say but, and then you add zip.

Please tell me someone on Wall Street is paying you to carry their water.

You can say that all you want, but I'm pretty sure I told you in another thread saying something doesn't make it so. Capitalism and free-market are basically the same thing. You call the financial industry capitalism, but the distinction between it and every other industry in that regard is nil. They're all privately owned. Because that industry gets government to prevent them from sinking doesn't suddenly distinguish them.

Were Lehman brothers allowed to go bankrupt without any other consideration that would be the free market at work.

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 5:55 pm » wrote: You can say that all you want, but I'm pretty sure I told you in another thread saying something doesn't make it so. Capitalism and free-market are basically the same thing. You call the financial industry capitalism, but the distinction between it and every other industry in that regard is nil. They're all privately owned. Because that industry gets government to prevent them from sinking doesn't suddenly distinguish them.

****. They have access to billions in anonymous cash. Fre enterprisers use their own capital, not anonymous capital. That distinction alone would amount to speciation in the natural world.

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 5:55 pm » wrote:Were Lehman brothers allowed to go bankrupt without any other consideration that would be the free market at work.

And if a frog had wings, son, he would not have such big back legs.

Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014 5:57 pm » wrote:
****. They have access to billions in anonymous cash. Fre enterprisers use their own capital, not anonymous capital. That distinction alone would amount to speciation in the natural world.

What???

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 5:59 pm » wrote:
What???

I said, ****. They have access to billions in anonymous cash. Free enterprisers use their own capital, not anonymous capital. That distinction alone would amount to speciation in the natural world.

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 5:55 pm » wrote:
You can say that all you want, but I'm pretty sure I told you in another thread saying something doesn't make it so. Capitalism and free-market are basically the same thing. You call the financial industry capitalism, but the distinction between it and every other industry in that regard is nil. They're all privately owned. Because that industry gets government to prevent them from sinking doesn't suddenly distinguish them.

Were Lehman brothers allowed to go bankrupt without any other consideration that would be the free market at work.

they are basically the same...but not the same. capitalism means you can be too big to fail...free enterprise means you can get to big to succeed. look, our economy is based on wall street, that is basically GAMBLING...our economy is based on gambling....that is capitalism. under free enterprise if a **** load of houses are fore closed on in one state...the whole country does not go tits up...if an auto manufacturer goes belly up they close shop and the only people effected is the people in the local vacinity...free enterprise is redundant enterprise....redundant economies....where if one fails...none others fail....we are not all tied together on a sinking ship and one life jacket

bigsky » 08 Apr 2014 6:03 pm » wrote:
they are basically the same...but not the same. capitalism means you can be too big to fail...free enterprise means you can get to big to succeed. look, our economy is based on wall street, that is basically GAMBLING...our economy is based on gambling....that is capitalism. under free enterprise if a **** load of houses are fore closed on in one state...the whole country does not go tits up...if an auto manufacturer goes belly up they close shop and the only people effected is the people in the local vacinity...free enterprise is redundant enterprise....redundant economies....where if one fails...none others fail....we are not all tied together on a sinking ship and one life jacket

Capitalism means industry is privately owned. I don't know what the **** you're talking about with this "too big to fail ****". That happens whether industry is privately or publicly owned.

bigsky » 08 Apr 2014 6:03 pm » wrote:
they are basically the same...but not the same. capitalism means you can be too big to fail...free enterprise means you can get to big to succeed. look, our economy is based on wall street, that is basically GAMBLING...our economy is based on gambling....that is capitalism. under free enterprise if a **** load of houses are fore closed on in one state...the whole country does not go tits up...if an auto manufacturer goes belly up they close shop and the only people effected is the people in the local vacinity...free enterprise is redundant enterprise....redundant economies....where if one fails...none others fail....we are not all tied together on a sinking ship and one life jacket

This post resolves the thread. This is the whole enchilada. Under free enterprise, the greatest possible efficiency is not served - just as in nature. Nature selects for variety and redundancy to ensure survival. A truly free market America would see more cultural and economic variety from state to state than you see from country to country in many parts of the globe. We would not see the same broad in the same uniform reading the same magazine and handing us the same menu in the same diner from Key West to Gnome, from Long Island to Long Beach.

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 6:04 pm » wrote:
Capitalism means industry is privately owned. I don't know what the **** you're talking about with this "too big to fail ****". That happens whether industry is privately or publicly owned.

No, it doesn't. Wall STreet firms are bailed out - have been since Reagan. Private firms are not.

I can list a dozen bailed out Wall Street firms. You can list zero bailed out private firms. Which makes you what?

What? Say it.

"Full of ****" is what the judges were looking for, son.

Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014 6:09 pm » wrote:
No, it doesn't. Wall STreet firms are bailed out - have been since Reagan. Private firms are not.

I can list a dozen bailed out Wall Street firms. You can list zero bailed out private firms. Which makes you what?

What? Say it.

"Full of ****" is what the judges were looking for, son.

Wall-Street firms are private.

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 6:04 pm » wrote:
Capitalism means industry is privately owned. I don't know what the **** you're talking about with this "too big to fail ****". That happens whether industry is privately or publicly owned.

our industry is not privately owned...look at general electric and their fancy curly q light bulbs...and look at the incandescent light bulb industry...our capitalist industry has lobbied for regulation after regulation so that small start ups can not reach the level of success that say ford or gm enjoys...this goes from the auto industry to the ag industry...try raising beef comercially and not donating your dollar to the beef check off....good luck mister...regulation is the right hand of capitalism....and regulation kills free enterprise...say for instance i had a holstein cow...i milked her twice a day and i had more milk than i could consume...can i sell that surplus milk to my neighbor? and if i can not,,,why can i not?

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 6:13 pm » wrote:
Wall-Street firms are private.

how are they private if they are publicly traded? now the hard ware store down the road here is private...they can pretty much do what ever they want...can the ceo of general motors empty the till and take the money, close the doors and walk away with all the loot? the guy down at the hard ware store can...because it is his money...gm has my money...and yours....not theirs..they are a public company

bigsky » 08 Apr 2014 6:16 pm » wrote:
our industry is not privately owned...look at general electric and their fancy curly q light bulbs...and look at the incandescent light bulb industry...our capitalist industry has lobbied for regulation after regulation so that small start ups can not reach the level of success that say ford or gm enjoys...this goes from the auto industry to the ag industry...try raising beef comercially and not donating your dollar to the beef check off....good luck mister...regulation is the right hand of capitalism....and regulation kills free enterprise...say for instance i had a holstein cow...i milked her twice a day and i had more milk than i could consume...can i sell that surplus milk to my neighbor? and if i can not,,,why can i not?

They're still privately owned. Whether or not they get help from government doesn't change that.

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 6:19 pm » wrote:
They're still privately owned. Whether or not they get help from government doesn't change that.

how many shares of gm stock does the federal government own? or better yet how much did they own? how much money is borrowed in quantative easing every month to prop up the economy? that is money that you and i are responsible for...and it is handed over to banks and wall street....money you and i owe back to the federal reserve...how is that private business?i own a flooring company..that is private business...there is not one federal dollar borrowed on my behalf to keep my business afloat...i sink or swim based on my reputation and decisions...you and i will disagree on the definition of private and public i guess...

tharock220 » 08 Apr 2014 6:04 pm » wrote: Capitalism means industry is privately owned. I don't know what the **** you're talking about with this "too big to fail ****". That happens whether industry is privately or publicly owned.

Wall street bail-outs, auto industry bail outs, corporate welfare, massive tax incentives, lobbyists being paid millions to manipulate legislation, zoning laws manipulated by corporations, manipulating markets, etc, etc, is capitalism. Sink or swim based on merit and competitiveness is a free market.

bigsky » 08 Apr 2014 6:18 pm » wrote:
how are they private if they are publicly traded? now the hard ware store down the road here is private...they can pretty much do what ever they want...can the ceo of general motors empty the till and take the money, close the doors and walk away with all the loot? the guy down at the hard ware store can...because it is his money...gm has my money...and yours....not theirs..they are a public company

You continue to resolve the thread and refute the board's Wall Street Advocate. On purpose or accidentally, Tha Rock is lying like a **** rug. He's obfuscating, hedging, collapsing, and otherwise misleading folks with half truths and lies. He is serving and protecting the collapsed distinctions that this thread is intended to shine a light upon. You are large and in charge of defending the OP. You should kick me out of your thread.