Liberal Forum

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 6:11 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 6:11 pm

I don't think you understand what the difference is between FREEDOM, and CAPITALISM. You DESCRIBE freedom, and then you CALL that freedom "capitalism."

One is political, the other is economic. You can have capitalism in a system that is not free (see, nazi germany, fascist italy), and freedom in a system that is not capitalist (see, Sweden, Norway).

Freedom does not rely on wall street markets. Capitalism does. 

I think you need some deeper thoughts.

...go easy on him...he's a monetary ignoramus like the rest...   

peepee » 31 Dec 2021, 10:43 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 10:43 am

...hopefully someday these authoritardians become aware that 'freedom' doesn't mean a f@cking thing without the word 'individual' [understood] preceding it...  ;)  
 

freedom from what? Being eternally separated as biologically here.

...'freedom' is certainly not the most universal ideal, goal, etc., in a decent society... 'justice' is.... many people do not deserve 'freedom' but everyone deserves 'justice'...  

peepee » 31 Dec 2021, 10:55 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 10:55 am

...'freedom' is certainly not the most universal ideal, goal, etc., in a decent society... 'justice' is.... many people do not deserve 'freedom' but everyone deserves 'justice'...

Well put.

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 8:04 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:04 pm

The problem that you are encountering, libdave, is that you are bringing level one arguments to a level 2, level 3 board.

...all arguments made by authoritardians are level one... none understand the absolute control/$upremacy of those who direct the money in 'the first round' of thi$ 'fractional reserve' fraud under which we are surely en$laved...

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 9:27 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 9:27 pm

No capitalism doesn't suck.  It is the best system by far at providing for the well being of its citizens.  Corruption sucks!!!!  Bribery of Bureaucrats entrusted to uphold the Constitution and the interests of the consumer sucks!!!!  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

   

...please explain who creates our money and how they do it within your notion of 'capitalism'...

...remember, 'money' is virtually one half of every economic transaction, yet you monetary ignoramuses act as though it doesn't matter who creates our money, how they do it, etc....you don't even understand the nature of money, etc.. 

[don't feel bad, you are among many authoritardian fellows!..]   
 

LibDave » 30 Dec 2021, 5:44 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Dec 2021, 5:44 pm

Marbury vs Madison Not unconstitutional.
Patriot Act Yes I think this went beyond the confines of the Constitution
Every war since 1960.  This too is not unconstitutional.
Citizens United.  I agree with the opinion of the court.  The decision was a compromise and IMHO struck a good balance.

"the fact that we keep a standing army at all is against the Constitution if it is longer than 2 years"
This is not a correct assessment of S1 A8 C12.  Read it again and also read the entire section.

  

Marbury v Madison gave the courts quasi legislative powers.

the Constitution clearly states that legislation is to be done by the legislative branch (Congress) not the judicial branch

SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 10:09 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 10:09 pm

I gotta give you that one.  Begrudgingly cuz it Flys in the face of my libertarian leanings

         

...a fascist libertarian who likes both trump and biden!?....       

...[further evidence the monetary ignoramuses need to put away the worthless    theories and get some monetary REALISM...]   

FOS » 29 Dec 2021, 11:53 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 11:53 pm

And no...it's stupid to blame Bush for bailouts
Blame the people who are really in charge: jews.

   

...thanks to authoritardian monetary ignoramuses like you [a recent trump supporter] we've never even had an honest audit of the accounts at the federal reserve.... you have no idea who is really in charge, authoritarded monetary ignoramus...   
 

FOS » 31 Dec 2021, 12:04 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 12:04 am

I'm the one who provided you with evidence that contradicted your world view. You provided nothing to me lol. What sort of sophistry are you attempting here?

Okay.  Well I've examined your "evidence" and it contradicted basically nothing.  Very little.  Your assessment of the history and Guatemala was biased.  That's the only thing it confirmed.

peepee » 31 Dec 2021, 10:47 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 10:47 am

...go easy on him...he's a monetary ignoramus like the rest... 

I got done with the mediocrity. We came to a cross road - that's how it always happens. You don't know anything about a fella while he's toolin' down the lane - but when he gets to the intersection, you find out what you're dealing with. 

He's a guy who wants to lean back in a tweed jacket and play wm f. buckley - a game that I never found wm. f. buckley terribly convincing at. What he does not want to do is engage in a debate that doesn't conform to his predetermined script. If you don't say what you're supposed to say in response to his canned twaddle, why, he'll just pretend like ya did, and keep dumping his prepared-out-of-house midwittery all over ya. 

I gave the kid a couple of chances to address evidence counter to his thesis. But he had nothing in the can, so he just bulled past it - repeatedly. I retired from the game, once I knew the game involved jock sniffing.  
 
 
 

peepee » 31 Dec 2021, 11:03 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 11:03 am

...all arguments made by authoritardians are level one... none understand the absolute control/$upremacy of those who direct the money in 'the first round' of thi$ 'fractional reserve' fraud under which we are surely en$laved...

But but but... tha invisuble hand takes care of all that...
 

Cannonpointer » 31 Dec 2021, 12:07 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 12:07 pm

I got done with the mediocrity. We came a cross roads - that's how it always happens. You don't know anything about a fella while he's toolin' down the lane - but when he gets to the intersection, you find out what you're dealing with. 

He's a guy who wants to lean back in a tweed jacket and play wm f. buckley - a game that I never found wm. f. buckley terribly convincing at. What he does not want to do is engage in a debate that doesn't conform to his predetermined script. If you don't say what you're supposed to say in response to his canned twaddle, why, he'll just pretend like ya did, and keep dumping his prepared midwittery all over ya. 

I gave the kid a couple of chances to address evidence counter to his thesis. But he had nothing in the can, so he just bulled past it - repeatedly. I retired from the game, once I knew the game involved jock sniffing.

now he is doing the same see no evil **** to FOS. Lol

SJConspirator » 31 Dec 2021, 12:13 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 12:13 pm

now he is doing the same see no evil **** to FOS. Lol

Well I asked specifically exactly what he found evil.  He basically said all corporations are evil, you're and idiot if you can't see it.  So there was little alternative than to search through the Left-Wing propaganda he linked as "proof" myself.  Then, just as I began to examine it he interrupted.  It was obvious he had lost and to avoid having his whole world crash down he began spewing MORE unsubstantiated claims of evil capitalism.  Basically just started spewing forth all manner of everything he could find about EVIL corporations from every communist leaning source he could Google.  Though I suspect he already had them ALL bookmarked.  Spewed forth like Russian vodka.  He inadvertently revealed this intention when he followed with "I could do this all day".  As if spitting out an avalanche of data links so voluminous as to prevent ANY real examination of the subject constitutes victory.  But I'm sure his brain considers it a victory. It avoided the discomfort he would have felt actually having to challenge his perception of the world.

Knowing I had already won the argument and evidenced by his actions he wanted to just end possible revelation his position fallacious and shut down the discussion, it was a case of, "Is their any hope for him?".  Is there ANY amount of reason which might possibly sink into his head and get around the "CAPITALISM EVIL - SOCIALISM GOOD - ME GREEDY - YOU GIVE ME" barricades he has firmly entrenched.  NOT A CHANCE!  He doesn't have the skills to undue the chains placed around his mind by others and more importantly himself to actually figure out EXACTLY whether something is truly evil or not.  He certainly isn't capable of attributing corruption and evil when he does stumble upon it to the correct source.

He could watch socialist tyrants burning his children at a stake and would blame capitalists from a disconnected region of the world because they bought a skateboard from the Tyrant 30 years earlier and this was how the tyrant purchased the axe that he used to chop down the firewood.  Must be!  Because socialist tyrants are SO FAR SUPERIOR to those who believe everyone should be free from having their property stolen.  "KEEPING AND PROFITING FROM WHAT YOU CREATE EVIL.  ME NO LIKE.  TYRANNY GOOD.  FORCE THEM GIVE ME THEIR STUFF.  ME GREEDY.  YOU BURN WIFE BUT YOU GOOD SOCIALIST!  WHY CAPITALISM DO THIS TO ME"
 
It isn't a moral high ground to take from hard working people the fruits of their labor and give it to yourself and others less possessed of the gift of toil and enterprise and resultant wealth of their own making just because you believe they are more deserving and that YOU ARE THE ARBITER of fairness.

LibDave » 31 Dec 2021, 12:50 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 12:50 pm

Well I asked him specifically to specify exactly what he found that was evil.  He couldn't do it.  He just basically said all corporations are evil.  So there is little alternative than to search for it myself throughout his barrage of Left-Wing propaganda he regurgitated.  Then before I could even ATTEMPT to examine what he spewed forth he knew he was basically done and devoid of anything not confirmationally biased.  At that point it was obvious he had lost and to avoid having his whole world come crashing down he began spewing MORE unsubstantiated claims of evil and basically started just spewing forth all manner of everything he could find about EVIL corporations from every communist leaning source he could Google.  Though perhaps he already had them all bookmarked.  Started changing the subject and attempt to just overwhelm his failed ideology through shear volume which there is no means of responding to in WEEKS!!!!  Spewed forth like Russian vodka.  At this point knowing I had already won the argument and he by his actions showed he knew his position fallacious, it was a case of is their any hope for him?  Is there ANY amount of reason which might possibly sink into his head and get around the "CAPITALISM EVIL - SOCIALISM GOOD - ME GREEDY - YOU GIVE ME" barricades he has firmly entrenched.  And the answer is... NOT A CHANCE!  He doesn't have the skills to undue the chains placed around his mind by others and more importantly himself and actually figure out EXACTLY whether something is truly evil or not.  And he certainly isn't capable of correctly attributing corruption and evil when he does stumble upon it to the correct source.  He could watch socialist tyrants burning his children at a stake and he would blame capitalists from a disconnected region of the world because they bought a skateboard from the Tyrant 30 years earlier and this was how the tyrant purchased the axe that he used to chop down the firewood.  Must be!  Because socialist tyrants are SO FAR SUPERIOR to those who believe everyone should be free from having their property stolen.  "KEEPING AND PROFITING FROM WHAT YOU CREATE EVIL.  ME NO LIKE.  TYRANNY GOOD.  FORCE THEM GIVE ME THEIR STUFF.  ME GREEDY.  YOUR BURN WIFE BUT YOU GOOD SOCIALIST!  WHY CAPITALISM DO THIS TO ME"

At this point, all I see here is a guy who wants me to pay Bill Gates taxes for him
 

SJConspirator » 31 Dec 2021, 1:22 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 1:22 pm

At this point, all I see here is a guy who wants me to pay Bill Gates taxes for him

Bill can and does pay his own taxes.  And not only more than you but at a higher rate.  What you think is Bill should pay MORE taxes so you can have his wealth.  And he should keep paying until he has no more wealth than anyone else.  Because you are greedy but too lazy to earn what he has.
 

SJConspirator » 31 Dec 2021, 1:22 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 1:22 pm

At this point, all I see here is a guy who wants me to pay Bill Gates taxes for him

Or have I confused who you are?  Are you the Fascist Straw Man plant intent on discouraging the spread of Fascist ideology?  Pretty bad when you don't know whether someone is a Socialist spreading propaganda or a socialist pretending to be a Fascist to make Fascism look bad with ridiculous nonsensical rants.
 
 

peepee » 31 Dec 2021, 10:55 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 10:55 am

...'freedom' is certainly not the most universal ideal, goal, etc., in a decent society... 'justice' is.... many people do not deserve 'freedom' but everyone deserves 'justice'...  

Know the difference between social justification in consensus and natural justice within a constant adapt or become extinct situation applied to all things occupying time as geographically here.

LibDave » 31 Dec 2021, 5:19 am » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 5:19 am

I dream of meritocracy?  I believe your mind reading skills have failed again.  lol.

Any way, I researched the history passed 1900.  No US government control whatsoever.  The US did give them free money which was squandered SOMEHOW. This was a Guatemalan issue with American investors and outside US jurisdiction or control.  They actually did a tremendous service for Guatemala at very high personal financial risk.  They succeeded partially in making the risk pay off.  But eventually it was all mute.  They got scammed in a Bernie Madoff type financial con and lost everything.  They left Guatemala with a railroad and a thriving banana industry though.  That's something.  Up to the year 1900 there is ZERO indication they were exploitive as you put it.  And certainly UF didn't "control" the US economy.  That's a laughable statement.

Not up to me to judge whether their elected officials were corrupt or legitimate leaders.  That's an internal issue and they are a sovereign nation.  So they should weigh in on that.  Not my place.

Stop trying to make assumptions about what I think lol.. you don't get the point I I trying to express. 

My point is that power is just power and no matter what system of government you have it will boil down to elites ruling with absolute power and imposingbtheir values upon the world. 

This was understood and pointed out as long ago as the mid 19th century by political philosophers such as Pareto.

liberal democracy is merely a tactic of hiding who the true power is.. if the state does not rule the economy then the economy will rule the state.. elected officials will be puppets of monied power who rule via bribery.. 

The idea that you can ever possibly impose laws on the elite and that they will follow it is naive and it is an illusion the elite want you to have because it makes you easier to govern. There is less unrest.. people will volunteer in the armed forces etc.
 

LibDave » 31 Dec 2021, 12:50 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2021, 12:50 pm

Well I asked specifically exactly what he found evil.  He basically said all corporations are evil, you're and idiot if you can't see it.  So there was little alternative than to search through the Left-Wing propaganda he linked as "proof" myself.  Then, just as I began to examine it he interrupted.  It was obvious he had lost and to avoid having his whole world crash down he began spewing MORE unsubstantiated claims of evil capitalism.  Basically just started spewing forth all manner of everything he could find about EVIL corporations from every communist leaning source he could Google.  Though I suspect he already had them ALL bookmarked.  Spewed forth like Russian vodka.  He inadvertently revealed this intention when he followed with "I could do this all day".  As if spitting out an avalanche of data links so voluminous as to prevent ANY real examination of the subject constitutes victory.  But I'm sure his brain considers it a victory. It avoided the discomfort he would have felt actually having to challenge his perception of the world.

Knowing I had already won the argument and evidenced by his actions he wanted to just end possible revelation his position fallacious and shut down the discussion, it was a case of, "Is their any hope for him?".  Is there ANY amount of reason which might possibly sink into his head and get around the "CAPITALISM EVIL - SOCIALISM GOOD - ME GREEDY - YOU GIVE ME" barricades he has firmly entrenched.  NOT A CHANCE!  He doesn't have the skills to undue the chains placed around his mind by others and more importantly himself to actually figure out EXACTLY whether something is truly evil or not.  He certainly isn't capable of attributing corruption and evil when he does stumble upon it to the correct source.

He could watch socialist tyrants burning his children at a stake and would blame capitalists from a disconnected region of the world because they bought a skateboard from the Tyrant 30 years earlier and this was how the tyrant purchased the axe that he used to chop down the firewood.  Must be!  Because socialist tyrants are SO FAR SUPERIOR to those who believe everyone should be free from having their property stolen.  "KEEPING AND PROFITING FROM WHAT YOU CREATE EVIL.  ME NO LIKE.  TYRANNY GOOD.  FORCE THEM GIVE ME THEIR STUFF.  ME GREEDY.  YOU BURN WIFE BUT YOU GOOD SOCIALIST!  WHY CAPITALISM DO THIS TO ME"
 
It isn't a moral high ground to take from hard working people the fruits of their labor and give it to yourself and others less possessed of the gift of toil and enterprise and resultant wealth of their own making just because you believe they are more deserving and that YOU ARE THE ARBITER of fairness.

I never said corporations are evil. This is you arguing with some archetype in your head.