I may be immune since I hate my family...Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 6:19 pm » wrote: ↑ It's like the weather - it's GONNA happen.
I do it. You do it. We all do it. And if we don't, it's because we can't.
Yeah that is wrong.
Let me just put this idea to you, for your consideration.LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:20 pm » wrote: ↑ First, UL certification is NOT required. When someone or some company seeks to insure a product against injury liability (unfortunately our society is quite litigious) many insurance companies require it pass UL certification. Although there are many such competing certification laboratories. In fact UL is nothing more than a group of independent laboratories who each specialize in the testing of various consumer products who operate and are advertised under the name UL. Hence the term United Laboratories. Companies are free to find different insurance and many forego insurance and the associated certifications it would require. Not all insurers require certification though the costs are normally higher. Major auto producers do just that. They perform their own testing and handle their own litigation. It's up to all parties involved what the services of each is worth and whether to enter into a contract at all.
As for the stock market, stock is just the shared ownership of a company. Owning a portion of the stock allows you to share in any profits (or losses it incurs). The company enters into agreements (as I described) which may or may not result in profits. The company may rent out their capital equipment to skilled workers who then produce goods for market. Free and fair contracts where all are benefited. They may also desired to instead pay wages to these same workers and keep the product themselves. If they sell the product for more than they agreed to pay in wages good for them. Whatever agreements they come to as long as it is free of undue coercion everyone involved must believe they benefit.
As a stockholder I have entered into a different agreement in which I exchange my wealth for a share of the proceeds generated by the company resulting from whatever contracts the company decides to enter into in exchange for what the property owned by the company brings to the table.
This has no bearing on the discussion. It is an attempt to avoid an intelligent discussion and signals you have thrown in the towel and conceded all points.SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 7:17 pm » wrote: ↑ it's not my business but you said freedom was a value.
If I hire a thousand mercenaries to control a thousand square miles of land, forcing every civilian there to starve or be a slave in my sweatshop, that is not "freedom"
Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014, 5:54 pm » wrote: ↑The step you need to make in your understanding is to grasp that what you are lamenting is not a failure of capitalism but its success. The founders revolted as much against the british east india company - successful capitalism, not yet named - as they did against king george.[url=http://liberalforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=219653#p219653 » wrote:NeoConvict»08Apr20145:50pm[/url]]I am pro capitalist. From what I experienced first hand being involved in the ecig industry we have something else here in America. Its not free market. Its where the big fish control arms of the government that are suppose to be monitoring them. Corportism. In capitialism if you build a better mouse trap the world beats a path to your door. In America, if you build a better mousetrap, the makers of Decon and other anti rodent products use the FDA, DEA, IRS and other alphebet industries to attempt to make your product illegal. When that fails they simply make a similar product while criminalizing the distribution of the original inventors good.
We need to emulate the founders. We need to outlaw WHATEVER name you want to give that crap on Wall Street. Name it petunia palunia, but OUTLAW it. Any attempt to "reform" is will be MANAGED BY THEM.
What I described is EXACTLY what happens in mercantilism in hundreds of villages in Vietnam, Bangladesh and other third world backholes.LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:35 pm » wrote: ↑ This has no bearing on the discussion. It is an attempt to avoid an intelligent discussion and signals you have thrown in the towel and conceded all points.
This is not free and fair and devoid of violence and coercion about subjugating the population of thousands of square miles and starving them. Any such endeavors are CERTAINLY not condoned by our laws and in no way a part of capitalism. This is just out and out tyranny. Not even going to entertain such nonsense.
Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014, 6:07 pm » wrote: ↑This post resolves the thread. This is the whole enchilada. Under free enterprise, the greatest possible efficiency is not served - just as in nature. Nature selects for variety and redundancy to ensure survival. A truly free market America would see more cultural and economic variety from state to state than you see from country to country in many parts of the globe. We would not see the same broad in the same uniform reading the same magazine and handing us the same menu in the same diner from Key West to Gnome, from Long Island to Long Beach.[url=http://liberalforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=219676#p219676 » wrote:bigsky»08Apr20146:03pm[/url]]
they are basically the same...but not the same. capitalism means you can be too big to fail...free enterprise means you can get to big to succeed. look, our economy is based on wall street, that is basically GAMBLING...our economy is based on gambling....that is capitalism. under free enterprise if a **** load of houses are fore closed on in one state...the whole country does not go tits up...if an auto manufacturer goes belly up they close shop and the only people effected is the people in the local vacinity...free enterprise is redundant enterprise....redundant economies....where if one fails...none others fail....we are not all tied together on a sinking ship and one life jacket
So my associates and I should be prevented from getting together and pooling our money to make the equipment needed to produce nano gravity propulsion systems? Once we complete the equipment needed to produce the engines we should also be prevented from hiring workers? Should we be prevented from instead renting out the equipment and teaching those would-be workers to create their own propulsion engines for sale? Should we do so should the workers who used our equipment be required to sell the systems for a price you consider fair. Because you won't allow it even though you aren't even involved in any way?
But what you are talking about is what actually happens.SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 7:39 pm » wrote: ↑ What I described is EXACTLY what happens in mercantilism in hundreds of villages in Vietnam, Bangladesh and other third world backholes.
Slave labor in the name of Capitolism to bring us Nike, Old Navy, bananas and many other commodities produced at the point of a gun.
deal with it
To the extent that you rely on government muscle - absolutely. And wall street relies on government muscle.LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:47 pm » wrote: ↑ So my associates and I should be prevented from getting together and pooling our money
Why do you need a government regulated trading board to assist you in such a noble enterprise?LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:47 pm » wrote: ↑ We need to pool our money to afford the equipment and have all agreed to put in the same amount and receive the same percentage of any profits.
Or, should we find ourselves in competition with other propulsion systems and develop new processes to lower the costs and price in an effort to reap the profits other inferior products might enjoy while benefiting our customers who freely pay these lower prices, would that be exploitative?LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:47 pm » wrote: ↑ So my associates and I should be prevented from getting together and pooling our money to make the equipment needed to produce nano gravity propulsion systems? Once we complete the equipment needed to produce the engines we should also be prevented from hiring workers? Should we be prevented from instead renting out the equipment and teaching those would-be workers to create their own propulsion engines for sale? Should we do so should the workers who used our equipment be required to sell the systems for a price you consider fair. Because you won't allow it even though you aren't even involved in any way?
We need to pool our money to afford the equipment and have all agreed to put in the same amount and receive the same percentage of any profits. Isn't your prevention of our ability to do just that exactly what you are complaining was the case with solar panels? When we finish we will be evil for getting together and creating the equipment necessary to lower the cost of interplanetary space flight because for whatever reason you consider our actions evil and exploitive?
Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014, 7:48 pm » wrote: ↑You continue to resolve the thread and refute the board's Wall Street Advocate. On purpose or accidentally, Tha Rock is lying like a **** rug. He's obfuscating, hedging, collapsing, and otherwise misleading folks with half truths and lies. He is serving and protecting the collapsed distinctions that this thread is intended to shine a light upon. You are large and in charge of defending the OP. You should kick me out of your thread.[url=http://liberalforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=219689#p219689 » wrote:bigsky»08Apr20146:18pm[/url]]
how are they private if they are publicly traded? now the hard ware store down the road here is private...they can pretty much do what ever they want...can the ceo of general motors empty the till and take the money, close the doors and walk away with all the loot? the guy down at the hard ware store can...because it is his money...gm has my money...and yours....not theirs..they are a public company
This was a smart move - answer your own posts, if ya don't like the answers we're giving you.LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:57 pm » wrote: ↑ Or, should we find ourselves in competition with other propulsion systems and develop new processes to lower the costs and price in an effort to reap the profits other inferior products might enjoy while benefiting our customers who freely pay these lower prices, would that be exploitative?
Perhaps Ford should have been prevented from creating automobiles to avoid the exploitation of horse and buggy whip manufacturers? Or the exploitative practice of offering applicant workers seeking jobs twice the average daily wage in an effort to keep up with the demand for his cars? Workers who were free to refuse the employment offers?
Stick to the point. In my case I do not rely on "Government muscle" whatever that is. We have the ability to produce an engine that will make inter-planetary travel routine and little more expensive than a flight from NY to Beijing (actually about triple the cost). It will require a fairly hefty investment but it will likely be well worth the cost. And you assert we should be prevented from freely entering into agreements to bring this about because you (someone who has no involvement whatsoever) think any free and fair agreement we make with potential workers who will use our equipment and knowledge to produce our invention is evil and exploitative. As soon as we make a profit you think you should be the one to decide what price is fair? Both for the product we brought about and what our workers make? Or do you have the right to decide to keep some of their wages for yourself as well? What is your objection? What is your interest and involvement for that matter? Surely we should be entitled to something in return for our efforts, knowledge, skills and equipment? If not I would say it is you who is exploiting us. And you have no right even being involved as you haven't lifted a single finger or participated in any way. Who are you to claim we are exploiting? I would make the case someone who thinks they should have a say in our enterprise and the enterprises of our workers without any effort in kind is the one exploiting.Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 7:49 pm » wrote: ↑ To the extent that you rely on government muscle - absolutely. And wall street relies on government muscle.
What you describe is EXACTLY hat John Gotti was doing - and they made HIM out to be a criminal.
You are a cut above the usual riffraff on this board, libdave.LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 3:54 pm » wrote: ↑ Intended for discussions needed and often misunderstood in regards to politics, geopolitics, economics, defense, or science (or anything of interest).

It appears you lack a firm grasp of my argument.LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm » wrote: ↑ Stick to the point. In my case I do not rely on "Government muscle" whatever that is. We have the ability to produce an engine that will make inter-planetary travel routine and little more expensive than a flight from NY to Beijing (actually about triple the cost). It will require a fairly hefty investment but it will likely be well worth the cost. And you assert we should be prevented from freely entering into agreements to bring this about because you (someone who has no involvement whatsoever) think any free and fair agreement we make with potential workers who will use our equipment and knowledge to produce our invention is evil and exploitative. As soon as we make a profit you think you should be the one to decide what price is fair? Both for the product we brought about and what our workers make? Or do you have the right to decide to keep some of their wages for yourself as well? What is your objection? What is your interest and involvement for that matter? Surely we should be entitled to something in return for our efforts, knowledge, skills and equipment? If not I would say it is you who is exploiting us. And you have no right even being involved as you haven't lifted a single finger or participated in any way. Who are you to claim we are exploiting? I would make the case someone who thinks they should have a say in our enterprise and the enterprises of our workers without any effort in kind is the one exploiting.
I'd have to disagree. To play sport at a pro level you have to stay in shape and have the talent level to stay as young players come up.SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 5:28 pm » wrote: ↑ Playing basketball is not work.. its play. Hence the phrase "play basketball"
Sports is a form of entertainment. Pro Athletes are like actors and musicians in a sense.. they are paid to entertain.
That is not work. Working is providing goods or services, creating commodities