Nourishment for the mind

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By LibDave
29 Dec 2021 2:54 pm in No Holds Barred Political Forum
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Deezer Shoove
29 Dec 2021 6:21 pm
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Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 6:19 pm » wrote: It's like the weather - it's GONNA happen. 

I do it. You do it. We all do it. And if we don't, it's because we can't.
I may be immune since I hate my family...  :wave:  
Please seat yourself.

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I like the very things you hate.
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:25 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:20 pm » wrote: First, UL certification is NOT required.
Yeah that is wrong.

You might find the odd community - Wasilla, maybe - that does not require BY LAW that only UL certified **** be put into homes.

You MIGHT.

But generally speaking, no UL, no sale. BY LAW.

That is how wall street makes its money. BY LAW. That is why, in many states, armed policemen will visit you if you try to live off-grid. It interferes with wall street profits, as they own the electric company you are forced by law to patronize. 
 
Capitalism relies on the state to corner markets, rather than earn their business. Look at Microsoft. It's an inferior product. But it owns the lion's share of the market. The reason for this is not that it served the market better, but that they were better connected and better at bullying the competition rather than out-serving the competition. If you look at any industry, private enterprise always does a better job. But capitalism always wins, because they have the government gun behind them.

We need to emulate this nation's founders and rebel against capitalism and reinstate free enterprise. Wall Street should be hermetically sealed as a monument to a failed economic system - an economic system defined by parasitism over service.
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:33 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:20 pm » wrote: First, UL certification is NOT required.  When someone or some company seeks to insure a product against injury liability (unfortunately our society is quite litigious) many insurance companies require it pass UL certification.  Although there are many such competing certification laboratories.  In fact UL is nothing more than a group of independent laboratories who each specialize in the testing of various consumer products who operate and are advertised under the name UL.  Hence the term United Laboratories.  Companies are free to find different insurance and many forego insurance and the associated certifications it would require.  Not all insurers require certification though the costs are normally higher.  Major auto producers do just that.  They perform their own testing and handle their own litigation.  It's up to all parties involved what the services of each is worth and whether to enter into a contract at all.

As for the stock market, stock is just the shared ownership of a company.  Owning a portion of the stock allows you to share in any profits (or losses it incurs).  The company enters into agreements (as I described) which may or may not result in profits.  The company may rent out their capital equipment to skilled workers who then produce goods for market.  Free and fair contracts where all are benefited.  They may also desired to instead pay wages to these same workers and keep the product themselves.  If they sell the product for more than they agreed to pay in wages good for them.  Whatever agreements they come to as long as it is free of undue coercion everyone involved must believe they benefit.

As a stockholder I have entered into a different agreement in which I exchange my wealth for a share of the proceeds generated by the company resulting from whatever contracts the company decides to enter into in exchange for what the property owned by the company brings to the table.
Let me just put this idea to you, for your consideration.

We live in the golden age of capitalism. That is inarguable - wall street has never been richer, never been more powerful, never been more influential. We have seen record years for a record number of years. 

And we ALL believe in free markets - especially the capitalists. Right?

Right?

Yet regulations have never been more numerous and more stifling and expensive to startups - even though the capitalists have never been stronger
 
That doesn't strike you as incongruous?
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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LibDave
29 Dec 2021 6:35 pm
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SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 7:17 pm » wrote: it's not my business but you said freedom was a value.

If I hire a thousand mercenaries to control a thousand square miles of land, forcing every civilian there to starve or be a slave in my sweatshop, that is not "freedom"
This has no bearing on the discussion.  It is an attempt to avoid an intelligent discussion and signals you have thrown in the towel and conceded all points.

There is nothing free and fair and devoid of violence and coercion about subjugating the population of thousands of square miles and starving them.  Any such endeavors are CERTAINLY not condoned by our laws and in no way a part of capitalism.  This is just out and out tyranny.  Not even going to entertain such nonsense.
 
 
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:35 pm
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A post from a bygone era:
Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014, 5:54 pm » wrote:
[url=http://liberalforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=219653#p219653 » wrote:NeoConvict»08Apr20145:50pm[/url]]I am pro capitalist. From what I experienced first hand being involved in the ecig industry we have something else here in America. Its not free market. Its where the big fish control arms of the government that are suppose to be monitoring them. Corportism. In capitialism if you build a better mouse trap the world beats a path to your door. In America, if you build a better mousetrap, the makers of Decon and other anti rodent products use the FDA, DEA, IRS and other alphebet industries to attempt to make your product illegal. When that fails they simply make a similar product while criminalizing the distribution of the original inventors good.
The step you need to make in your understanding is to grasp that what you are lamenting is not a failure of capitalism but its success. The founders revolted as much against the british east india company - successful capitalism, not yet named - as they did against king george.

We need to emulate the founders. We need to outlaw WHATEVER name you want to give that crap on Wall Street. Name it petunia palunia, but OUTLAW it. Any attempt to "reform" is will be MANAGED BY THEM.
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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SJConspirator
29 Dec 2021 6:39 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:35 pm » wrote: This has no bearing on the discussion.  It is an attempt to avoid an intelligent discussion and signals you have thrown in the towel and conceded all points.

This is not free and fair and devoid of violence and coercion about subjugating the population of thousands of square miles and starving them.  Any such endeavors are CERTAINLY not condoned by our laws and in no way a part of capitalism.  This is just out and out tyranny.  Not even going to entertain such nonsense.
What I described is EXACTLY what happens in mercantilism in hundreds of villages in Vietnam, Bangladesh and other third world backholes.

Slave labor in the name of Capitolism to bring us Nike, Old Navy, bananas and many other commodities produced at the point of a gun.

deal with it
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:46 pm
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Another post, from that same thread:
Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014, 6:07 pm » wrote:
[url=http://liberalforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=219676#p219676 » wrote:bigsky»08Apr20146:03pm[/url]]

they are basically the same...but not the same. capitalism means you can be too big to fail...free enterprise means you can get to big to succeed. look, our economy is based on wall street, that is basically GAMBLING...our economy is based on gambling....that is capitalism. under free enterprise if a **** load of houses are fore closed on in one state...the whole country does not go tits up...if an auto manufacturer goes belly up they close shop and the only people effected is the people in the local vacinity...free enterprise is redundant enterprise....redundant economies....where if one fails...none others fail....we are not all tied together on a sinking ship and one life jacket
This post resolves the thread. This is the whole enchilada. Under free enterprise, the greatest possible efficiency is not served - just as in nature. Nature selects for variety and redundancy to ensure survival. A truly free market America would see more cultural and economic variety from state to state than you see from country to country in many parts of the globe. We would not see the same broad in the same uniform reading the same magazine and handing us the same menu in the same diner from Key West to Gnome, from Long Island to Long Beach.
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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LibDave
29 Dec 2021 6:47 pm
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Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 7:35 pm » wrote: A post from a bygone era:
So my associates and I should be prevented from getting together and pooling our money to make the equipment needed to produce nano gravity propulsion systems?  Once we complete the equipment needed to produce the engines we should also be prevented from hiring workers?  Should we be prevented from instead renting out the equipment and teaching those would-be workers to create their own propulsion engines for sale?  Should we do so should the workers who used our equipment be required to sell the systems for a price you consider fair.  Because you won't allow it even though you aren't even involved in any way?

We need to pool our money to afford the equipment and have all agreed to put in the same amount and receive the same percentage of any profits.  Isn't your prevention of our ability to do just that exactly what you are complaining was the case with solar panels?  When we finish we will be evil for getting together and creating the equipment necessary to lower the cost of interplanetary space flight because for whatever reason you consider our actions evil and exploitive?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:48 pm
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SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 7:39 pm » wrote: What I described is EXACTLY what happens in mercantilism in hundreds of villages in Vietnam, Bangladesh and other third world backholes.

Slave labor in the name of Capitolism to bring us Nike, Old Navy, bananas and many other commodities produced at the point of a gun.

deal with it
But what you are talking about is what actually happens.

The man is trying to talk THEORY, for petes sake. Stop interrupting with facts. Ruins the flow. 
 
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:49 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:47 pm » wrote: So my associates and I should be prevented from getting together and pooling our money
To the extent that you rely on government muscle - absolutely. And wall street relies on government muscle.

What you describe is EXACTLY hat John Gotti was doing - and they made HIM out to be a criminal.
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:51 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:47 pm » wrote: We need to pool our money to afford the equipment and have all agreed to put in the same amount and receive the same percentage of any profits.
Why do you need a government regulated trading board to assist you in such a noble enterprise?

I can manage what you are describing without a super-national conglomerate brokering my deals - picking winners and losers along the way.
 
 
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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LibDave
29 Dec 2021 6:57 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:47 pm » wrote: So my associates and I should be prevented from getting together and pooling our money to make the equipment needed to produce nano gravity propulsion systems?  Once we complete the equipment needed to produce the engines we should also be prevented from hiring workers?  Should we be prevented from instead renting out the equipment and teaching those would-be workers to create their own propulsion engines for sale?  Should we do so should the workers who used our equipment be required to sell the systems for a price you consider fair.  Because you won't allow it even though you aren't even involved in any way?

We need to pool our money to afford the equipment and have all agreed to put in the same amount and receive the same percentage of any profits.  Isn't your prevention of our ability to do just that exactly what you are complaining was the case with solar panels?  When we finish we will be evil for getting together and creating the equipment necessary to lower the cost of interplanetary space flight because for whatever reason you consider our actions evil and exploitive?
Or, should we find ourselves in competition with other propulsion systems and develop new processes to lower the costs and price in an effort to reap the profits other inferior products might enjoy while benefiting our customers who freely pay these lower prices, would that be exploitative?

Perhaps Ford should have been prevented from creating automobiles to avoid the exploitation of horse and buggy whip manufacturers?  Or the exploitative practice of offering applicant workers seeking jobs twice the average daily wage in an effort to keep up with the demand for his cars?  Workers who were free to refuse the employment offers?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 6:59 pm
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Cannonpointer » 08 Apr 2014, 7:48 pm » wrote:
[url=http://liberalforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=219689#p219689 » wrote:bigsky»08Apr20146:18pm[/url]]
how are they private if they are publicly traded? now the hard ware store down the road here is private...they can pretty much do what ever they want...can the ceo of general motors empty the till and take the money, close the doors and walk away with all the loot? the guy down at the hard ware store can...because it is his money...gm has my money...and yours....not theirs..they are a public company
You continue to resolve the thread and refute the board's Wall Street Advocate. On purpose or accidentally, Tha Rock is lying like a **** rug. He's obfuscating, hedging, collapsing, and otherwise misleading folks with half truths and lies. He is serving and protecting the collapsed distinctions that this thread is intended to shine a light upon. You are large and in charge of defending the OP. You should kick me out of your thread.
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 7:00 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 7:57 pm » wrote: Or, should we find ourselves in competition with other propulsion systems and develop new processes to lower the costs and price in an effort to reap the profits other inferior products might enjoy while benefiting our customers who freely pay these lower prices, would that be exploitative?

Perhaps Ford should have been prevented from creating automobiles to avoid the exploitation of horse and buggy whip manufacturers?  Or the exploitative practice of offering applicant workers seeking jobs twice the average daily wage in an effort to keep up with the demand for his cars?  Workers who were free to refuse the employment offers?
This was a smart move - answer your own posts, if ya don't like the answers we're giving you. 

I should have thought of that years ago. 

You in the disciple taking business, by any chance? :)
 
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 7:04 pm
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The problem that you are encountering, libdave, is that you are bringing level one arguments to a level 2, level 3 board.

Yes, we are replete with lowbrows, always. And yes, we tire of holding our end and engage in a bit of trolling.

But many of us on this board have worked through the level one **** you are bringing. I mean, you sling adam smith like he's the new kid with the shiny idea. A bit of infill has been experienced since his day. We've gone from theory to practice.

And it is the actual practice of capitalism that affects our lives - not the theory.

You still have not explained why the nanny state needs to be involved in the economy at the level of regulating the trading boards which you APPARENTLY require in order for you and some buddies to go into bidness together...
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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LibDave
29 Dec 2021 7:10 pm
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Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 7:49 pm » wrote: To the extent that you rely on government muscle - absolutely. And wall street relies on government muscle.

What you describe is EXACTLY hat John Gotti was doing - and they made HIM out to be a criminal.
Stick to the point.  In my case I do not rely on "Government muscle" whatever that is.  We have the ability to produce an engine that will make inter-planetary travel routine and little more expensive than a flight from NY to Beijing (actually about triple the cost).  It will require a fairly hefty investment but it will likely be well worth the cost.  And you assert we should be prevented from freely entering into agreements to bring this about because you (someone who has no involvement whatsoever) think any free and fair agreement we make with potential workers who will use our equipment and knowledge to produce our invention is evil and exploitative.  As soon as we make a profit you think you should be the one to decide what price is fair?  Both for the product we brought about and what our workers make?  Or do you have the right to decide to keep some of their wages for yourself as well?  What is your objection?  What is your interest and involvement for that matter?  Surely we should be entitled to something in return for our efforts, knowledge, skills and equipment?  If not I would say it is you who is exploiting us.  And you have no right even being involved as you haven't lifted a single finger or participated in any way.  Who are you to claim we are exploiting?  I would make the case someone who thinks they should have a say in our enterprise and the enterprises of our workers without any effort in kind is the one exploiting.
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 7:11 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 3:54 pm » wrote: Intended for discussions needed and often misunderstood in regards to politics, geopolitics, economics, defense, or science (or anything of interest).
You are a cut above the usual riffraff on this board, libdave. 

I hope you will figure out the search functions and peruse some of the threads started by a few of the folks on this board. FOS, SJC, Polarity, myself, GeorgeWashington, a few others. 

A lot of the things that interest you have been delved into at length, and you might just find some food for thought. 

My own assaults on capitalism - numerous and unrelenting over more than a decade - have mostly survived a recent data purge. You will find your simplistic view of capitalism rather brutally skewered, and you might just become an advocate of free enterprise - with a firm understanding of the differences between these competing systems. 

Any time you want to follow a post back to the original thread, you can click on the date the post was made - it snaps back to the original. Image
 
 
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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Cannonpointer
29 Dec 2021 7:15 pm
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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm » wrote: Stick to the point.  In my case I do not rely on "Government muscle" whatever that is.  We have the ability to produce an engine that will make inter-planetary travel routine and little more expensive than a flight from NY to Beijing (actually about triple the cost).  It will require a fairly hefty investment but it will likely be well worth the cost.  And you assert we should be prevented from freely entering into agreements to bring this about because you (someone who has no involvement whatsoever) think any free and fair agreement we make with potential workers who will use our equipment and knowledge to produce our invention is evil and exploitative.  As soon as we make a profit you think you should be the one to decide what price is fair?  Both for the product we brought about and what our workers make?  Or do you have the right to decide to keep some of their wages for yourself as well?  What is your objection?  What is your interest and involvement for that matter?  Surely we should be entitled to something in return for our efforts, knowledge, skills and equipment?  If not I would say it is you who is exploiting us.  And you have no right even being involved as you haven't lifted a single finger or participated in any way.  Who are you to claim we are exploiting?  I would make the case someone who thinks they should have a say in our enterprise and the enterprises of our workers without any effort in kind is the one exploiting.
It appears you lack a firm grasp of my argument. 

I have no position on you going into business or taking on partners. I will wish your enterprise well, I assure you, as I am a man of good cheer. 

I don't want the nanny state involved - plain and simple. I want business to do business and government to do government - hot side hot, cool side cool. Ya gotta keep em separated. 

When you introduce government subsidized trading boards to the equation, we start running afoul of free enterprise. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHUql3OC_uU
 
 
When you complain, ur friends roll their eyes and ur enemies rejoice

"Because I SAY I am" is a todler's tantrum, not "science"

You cannot betray me - only yourself, to me.

Who cuts off your dick is not a friend

An opinion you won't defend is not your own

Humanity's Law of the Jungle: Survival NOT of the fittest, but of the tribe

When peeing in the pool, stand on the edge

If gender is not sex, why should a gender claim change what sex you shower with?
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LibDave
29 Dec 2021 7:15 pm
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Is your objection that we pooled our money to bring this about and for some unknown reason you believe stock ownership and our free, fair and private agreement is evil? Is it that you are producing a competing product and don't like the fact you won't be able to sell a version you actually HAVE involved yourself with?
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Crazytrain
29 Dec 2021 7:17 pm
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SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 5:28 pm » wrote: Playing basketball is not work.. its play.  Hence the phrase "play basketball"

Sports is a form of entertainment.  Pro Athletes are like actors and musicians in a sense.. they are paid to entertain.

That is not work.  Working is providing goods or services, creating commodities
I'd have to disagree. To play sport at a pro level you have to stay in shape and have the talent level to stay as young players come up. 
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