Liberal Forum

I don't want the government involved either. Not any more than is necessary to insure our intellectual property is protected from theft by the Chinese. They will likely be one of the initial customers, but as I see it they are no more than another customer tasked with purchasing products in the interest of the citizens.

There again, intellectual property is the result of someone's labor.  It is merely mental labor and not physical.  It produces a product which likewise has value and the Right to Property should be protected.
 

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 8:19 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:19 pm

I don't want the government involved either.

Of COURSE ya do.

You're a wall street fancier.

Not just ANYBODY gets to run a trading board. No, no - that's all licensed by the nanny state regulated, protected.

And when necessary, rescued. 

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 8:19 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:19 pm

Not any more than is necessary to insure our intellectual property is protected from theft by the Chinese. They will likely be one of the initial customers, but as I see it they are no more than another customer tasked with purchasing products in the interest of the citizens.

I'm going to just get crazy as a mother ****, here, and suggest to you that over the past 40 years or so, a whole bunch of moves have been made that are NOT in the interests of us citizens, but which HAVE BEEN in the interests of the global elites who benefit from wall street's cozy relationship with government.

Listen, if that whole "cozy relationship" thing is confusing, google "bailouts," and learn how capitalism REALLY works. Then, you might understand why I prefer free enterprise.
 

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 8:19 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:19 pm

I DO hope that you are not under the illusion that I am arguing against property rights, when I ask you to keep your government chocolate out of my free enterprise peanut butter.
 

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 8:24 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:24 pm

Of COURSE ya do.

You're a wall street fancier.

Not just ANYBODY gets to run a trading board. No, no - that's all licensed by the nanny state regulated, protected.

And when necessary, rescued. 

I'm going to just get crazy as a mother ****, here, and suggest to you that over the past 40 years or so, a whole bunch of moves have been made that are NOT in the interests of us citizens, but which HAVE BEEN in the interests of the global elites who benefit from wall street's cozy relationship with government.

Listen, if that whole "cozy relationship" thing is confusing, google "bailouts," and learn how capitalism REALLY works. Then, you might understand why I prefer free enterprise.

You mean prop up the billionaire class and give wall street more investment through tax cuts that ended up propping up the stock market over the last four or five years. 

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 3:54 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 3:54 pm

Intended for discussions needed and often misunderstood in regards to politics, geopolitics, economics, defense, or science (or anything of interest).

The first 10 seconds says it all.

https://youtu.be/HRkTQm33coE

Crazytrain » 29 Dec 2021, 8:27 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:27 pm

You mean prop up the billionaire class and give wall street more investment through tax cuts that ended up propping up the stock market over the last four or five years.

That, but not limited to that. 

I mean enforcing monopolies for wall street, fighting wars for wall street, overthrowing governments for wall street - I mean wall street running DC.
 

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 8:30 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:30 pm

That, but not limited to that. 

I mean enforcing monopolies for wall street, fighting wars for wall street, overthrowing governments for wall street - I mean wall street running DC.

You don't know that America is all about protecting the donor class.

DeezerShoove » 29 Dec 2021, 8:28 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:28 pm

The first 10 seconds says it all.

https://youtu.be/HRkTQm33coE

Now that was just mean. You have a mean streak, ya know that?

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 8:32 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:32 pm

Now that was just mean. You have a mean streak, ya know that?

That's the first I've heard of it...  

Crazytrain » 29 Dec 2021, 8:32 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:32 pm

You don't know that America is all about protecting the donor class.

Now that you bring it to my attention, I will consider it. Thanks.
 

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 8:34 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:34 pm

Now that you bring it to my attention, I will consider it. Thanks.

Good dear. You are always thoughtful and consider others points of view.   

Crazytrain » 29 Dec 2021, 8:39 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:39 pm

Good dear. You are always thoughtful and consider others points of view. 

That's what people keep telling me - though rarely in such a civil tone.
 

Cannonpointer » 29 Dec 2021, 8:24 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:24 pm

Of COURSE ya do.

You're a wall street fancier.

Not just ANYBODY gets to run a trading board. No, no - that's all licensed by the nanny state regulated, protected.

And when necessary, rescued. 

I'm going to just get crazy as a mother ****, here, and suggest to you that over the past 40 years or so, a whole bunch of moves have been made that are NOT in the interests of us citizens, but which HAVE BEEN in the interests of the global elites who benefit from wall street's cozy relationship with government.

Listen, if that whole "cozy relationship" thing is confusing, google "bailouts," and learn how capitalism REALLY works. Then, you might understand why I prefer free enterprise.

We can agree there are abuses.  But this isn't due to some fault with capitalism.  It is due to human nature and the desire to obtain an unfair advantage.  This is precisely WHY it is regulated by the government under the auspices of the power to regulate trade defined in the Constitution.  I will give you an example in which we do agree.

Years ago I was anxiously awaiting the arrival of Windows 4.0.  I already had a PC running an earlier version of Windows and was very dissatisfied.  Another product had previously come out on the market called DR DOS.  An operating system produced by Digital Research (hence the name).  DR DOS could do many things Windows had touted it would do without all the bugs.  It truly was the first multitasking operating system.  If you tried to open email in Windows and simultaneously open a spreadsheet or Word it would crash and burn constantly.  DR DOS could run Windows underneath it seamlessly.  It could even run multiple instances of Windows and it actually prevented many of the crashes Windows would experience.  It also provided its own suite of applications which in many cases were better or unavailable for Windows.

When I received my copy of the newly released Windows 4.0 (it came in 14 3.5 inch disks) I began the install.  It took about 45 minutes to load each disk.  That's about 10 hours total if you were Johnny-on-the-spot swapping out the next disk (such was the technology of the day).  After 10 hours I watched the progress bar approach 100%.  At 99% it took forever to go the last percentile.  After 2 hours it finally displayed a message... "DR DOS Installation Error!  Please contact your vendor for assistance!".  What the hell did that mean?  I called Microsoft and got a message saying their help line was down due to technical difficulties.  So I called DR DOS and got a message the wait time was over 10 hours.  So I hung up and decided to try another attempt at installing Windows 4.0 (it had hung in a manner that I wasn't able to boot the system at all... even to DR DOS).  10 hours later same thing at 99% and two more hours to receive the message.
 
 
 

I got this one wrong:

Cannonpointer » 14 Apr 2014, 3:26 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Apr 2014, 3:26 pm

The government is trying everything it can to beat up the vape industry - a free enterprise industry - on behalf of big tobacco - a wall street industry. Nothing terribly complex, here.

The problem they have is this: If the FDA takes authority over vapes, they have a small problem, since propylene glycol and nicotine are the only ingredients in e-liquid. Oh, there are some flavors, but those can - and would - be scrapped immediately, depriving the FDA of authority.

Now, if they take authority based on propylene glycol, there are thousands of products, including food stuffs and medically prescribed vaporizers, that already have that product in them. Ooops. And if they take authority based on nicotine, that would ALSO force them to regulate tobacco as "safe and effective," which cannot be done if the devil himself becomes big tobacco's advocate.

Wall Street's media has been chomping at the bit, spewing lie after lie about vaping on the "news." But the government itself is really having a tough time on this thing. What to do, what to do...

In fact, it is precisely the FLAVORS that the FDA has picked to destroy small businesses. They are forcing every small business to pay MILLIONS for "certifications" for each and every flavor. They have also begun to force the vape industry to use only synthetic nicotine, if my understanding is correct - don't know what legal theory they base that demand on.
 

3rd attempt same thing after not being able to work from my computer for a day. So 1 days lost wages and it was now Monday. Microsoft still wasn't answering so I opted for the 10 hour wait with DR DOS help line. After 10 hours I started to explain the issue. I didn't even finish my sentence. I said, "I'm trying to install Windows 4.0 and..." then I was interrupted. He said, "Yes we know what the problem is. Boot off your DR DOS floppy and go to your DR DOS directory. Type rename DRDOS.CFG to DRDOS.BAK. Install windows 4.0. It will finish in about 10 hours. After you are done rename DRDOS.BAK back to DRDOS.CFG. You'll be good to go". I was like, "WTF!!!!". He said, "Yes. Windows considers DRDOS a threat to their monopoly of the operating system. So they check before completing the install to see whether this file exists. If it does they won't let you complete the install."

DR DOS received countless calls and it literally swamped their help lines and cost them millions. As a startup this was something they could ill afford. Eventually this and other blatantly unfair trade practices by Microsoft put them under. They filed suit. In the early 80's trying to get a jury of 12 to understand what an operating system even is was an impossible task. But they succeeded.... 10 years later after they had already filed for bankruptcy. Microsoft was found in violation of antitrust and the former stock holders were awarded a pittance in damages. Microsoft remains one of the dominant OS to this day. I will NEVER forgive them for wasting my time and costing me (one of their customers) valuable time and money dealing with their crap. So we agree there are abuses. But these aren't capitalism. We have antitrust laws in place for just this reason. Unfortunately, our legal system is very slow in dealing with this crap and legal fees are outrageous. Lawyers can drag on a case far beyond the point were damages can be fully redressed.

When I finally got to speak to Microsoft to file a complaint and at least vent my anger at SOMEONE from Microsoft they gave me the standard response.  "DR DOS is not compatible with WINDOWS 4.0 so we were doing a service to our customers preventing installation of both products to avoid the customer losing data".  I continued to run DR DOS for quite some time thereafter and NEVER had any issues.  Evidence later came out this was a complete fabrication.
 
 

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 9:01 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 9:01 pm

3rd attempt same thing after not being able to work from my computer for a day. So 1 days lost wages and it was now Monday. Microsoft still wasn't answering so I opted for the 10 hour wait with DR DOS help line. After 10 hours I started to explain the issue. I didn't even finish my sentence. I said, "I'm trying to install Windows 4.0 and..." then I was interrupted. He said, "Yes we know what the problem is. Boot off your DR DOS floppy and go to your DR DOS directory. Type rename DRDOS.CFG to DRDOS.BAK. Install windows 4.0. It will finish in about 10 hours. After you are done rename DRDOS.BAK back to DRDOS.CFG. You'll be good to go". I was like, "WTF!!!!". He said, "Yes. Windows considers DRDOS a threat to their monopoly of the operating system. So they check before completing the install to see whether this file exists. If it does they won't let you complete the install."

DR DOS received countless calls and it literally swamped their help lines and cost them millions. As a startup this was something they could ill afford. Eventually this and other blatantly unfair trade practices by Microsoft put them under. They filed suit. In the early 80's trying to get a jury of 12 to understand what an operating system even is was an impossible task. But they succeeded.... 10 years later after they had already filed for bankruptcy. Microsoft was found in violation of antitrust and the former stock holders were awarded a pittance in damages. Microsoft remains one of the dominant OS to this day. I will NEVER forgive them for wasting my time and costing me (one of their customers) valuable time and money dealing with their crap. So we agree there are abuses. But these aren't capitalism. We have antitrust laws in place for just this reason. Unfortunately, our legal system is very slow in dealing with this crap and legal fees are outrageous. Lawyers can drag on a case far beyond the point were damages can be fully redressed.

When I finally got to speak to Microsoft to file a complaint and at least vent my anger at SOMEONE from Microsoft they gave me the standard response.  "DR DOS is not compatible with WINDOWS 4.0 so were were doing a service to our customers preventing installation of both products to avoid the customer losing data".  I continued to run DR DOS for quite some time thereafter and NEVER had any issues.  Evidence later came out this was a complete fabrication.

so.. beaurocracy sucks whether it's from the DMV or the private sector
thats what we been trying to tell u

And yes I am aware of what you are saying in regards to government interference and corruption. Corporate payoffs and partnerships with the FDA and other regulatory agencies. But this isn't an aspect or the fault of capitalism. The corruption seen in socialist countries is FAR worse. Putin doesn't even have to hide his corruption. The oligarch's openly ally with the government. We have laws and in cases where there is improper alliance with regulatory agencies they should be strung up and spend the rest of their life in Oklahoma's Supermax. This is not capitalism it is just a fact of human nature. When people have more power and as a result more access to corrupt bureaucrats they will often commit crimes. At least they're crimes unlike Communist Russia and Fascist Germany.

And it wouldn't at all surprise me to find out Fauci and/or Biden are getting kickbacks from the pharmaceutical industry for purchases of vaccines from the government till and mandates.  And I've seen what goes on in politics.  It's basically legalized theft.  Same politicians who vote for certain protections get campaign donations.  How the F$%^ is it legal for politicians to accept ANY donations PERIOD.  This should be a privilege and all elected officials should be prevented from even the appearance of such activities.  That's how it is in the military.  You can get court martialed for conduct which could possibly be construed as corrupt.

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 8:55 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 8:55 pm

We can agree there are abuses.  But this isn't due to some fault with capitalism.  

What if it WERE the design of capitalism? Would you cease to support capitalism?

Allow me to give you an example of capitalism REQUIRING government sponsorship for its existence. Let us take Mother Russia, from circa 1917 to circa 1992. In all of those years, capitalism DID not, COULD not exist in the USSR. 

Free enterprise did. People still traded - legally, illegally, free enterprise continued on. But CAPITALISM did not, could not exist. Because the government did not SPONSOR it. And capitalism cannot exist without government sponsorship.

Even if it has to express itself in a black market, free enterprise is impossible to extinguish. But all a government has to do to end capitalism is cease to support it. 

So there is CLEARLY a difference between capitalism and free enterprise. Clearly.

I only support one of them. You BELIEVE that you support both - and I believe that you are incorrect. They are at odds. Support for one is antipathy to the other.
 

SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 9:17 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 9:17 pm

so.. beaurocracy sucks whether it's from the DMV or the private sector
thats what we been trying to tell u

No capitalism doesn't suck.  It is the best system by far at providing for the well being of its citizens.  Corruption sucks!!!!  Bribery of Bureaucrats entrusted to uphold the Constitution and the interests of the consumer sucks!!!!  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2021, 9:18 pm

And yes I am aware of what you are saying in regards to government interference and corruption. Corporate payoffs and partnerships with the FDA and other regulatory agencies. But this isn't an aspect or the fault of capitalism. The corruption seen in socialist countries is FAR worse. Putin doesn't even have to hide his corruption. The oligarch's openly ally with the government. We have laws and in cases where there is improper alliance with regulatory agencies they should be strung up and spend the rest of their life in Oklahoma's Supermax. This is not capitalism it is just a fact of human nature. When people have more power and as a result more access to corrupt bureaucrats they will often commit crimes. At least they're crimes unlike Communist Russia and Fascist Germany.

Putin has put a **** of a lot more oligarchs in jail than any presidents in the last century have put wall street tycoons in jail. Even the legendary teapot dome scandal of the 20s resulted in only one incarceration of 6 months duration. I defy you to name ONE CROOKED RAT who has ever even been THREATENED with a supermax - hell, with a country club. 

No, sir. Super maxes are for the little people - not for the capitalists. They OWN the super maxes. The super maxes are there to enforce their hegemony. 

But let us deal with the meat, not with the side dish. 

Again, you are attempting to relegate a primary feature of capitalism - the corruption and takeover of regulatory agencies to effect monopoly powers - to a mere foible of a few capitalists. But in truth, capitalism is all about government enforced monopolies - and I have given you plenty of examples to dispute, if you can do so.

Explain to us, for example, how the current bullying to get vaxed, using government muscle to force people to take wall street's products, is a mere foible. Or explain how the takeover of the vape market using the government gun is not a feature of capitalism, but a mere foible. Or how preventing new entrants into the market place in the solar pane industry is not a feature, but merely a foible, of capitalism. Or how nullifying the democratic power of governments through trade treaties is not a threat to national sovereignty and an attempt to overthrow/overtake the government from within.