Liberal Forum

B.See » 11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am

Well, like I wrote in a response above, Putin's original excuse for making war on Ukraine was to eliminate Nazis... so he said. Besides, if Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, shouldn't that be their right as a sovereign nation?

So you agree with Putin... Ukraine is run by nazis...

B.See » 11 Feb 2023, 7:33 am » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 7:33 am

Valid point. But are Russian soldiers who are conscripted into Putin's army, most of whom had no idea of where they were going, any LESS forced? If someone invaded your home, murdered your countrymen, women, children, raped and tortured, would YOU have to "forced" to fight?

Lest we forget, Putin originally claimed his invasion of Ukraine was to stamp out Nazism. What happened to THAT storyline? Now it's because of nato?

Both "n" words, Close enough for government sakes.

B.See » 11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am

Well, like I wrote in a response above, Putin's original excuse for making war on Ukraine was to eliminate Nazis... so he said. Besides, if Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, shouldn't that be their right as a sovereign nation?

not if nato will be on russia's borders and a threat to russia's security. just like america did not want missiles on cuba.

B.See » 10 Feb 2023, 9:27 am » wrote: ↑

10 Feb 2023, 9:27 am

I've read the last 7 or 8 pages of this thread, and was relieved to see that, aside from the occasional drive-by **** postings from the USUAL suspects... ahem... there has been interesting point and counterpoint from both right and left of the political spectrum.  

Much of the comment critical of Ukrainian support seems to me to be either based upon historical context (who and what Ukrainians WERE at one time), or the presumption that the conflict exists extraneously of the will of the Ukrainian people. 

Of the first, who and what Ukraine WAS at one time in history should have little bearing (imo) on who and what they are now, or more importantly, who and what the WANT to be. 

Which brings us to the second, in which some suggest that Ukrainians are being played as pawns by outside forces from the west (NATO, etc.). Such arguments, I think, ignore the will of the people themselves, if not impugning their INTEGRITY. I would think, that if Ukrainians weren't determined NOT to be under Putin's thumb, if indeed they are merely being used as pawns,

they would not be literally fighting to the DEATH to RESIST... I would think.

finland was perfectly happy

https://youtu.be/7WtIXkIS3XY

B.See » 11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am

Well, like I wrote in a response above, Putin's original excuse for making war on Ukraine was to eliminate Nazis... so he said. Besides, if Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, shouldn't that be their right as a sovereign nation?

his reason has always been that ukraine not join nato.

B.See » 11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 7:37 am

Well, like I wrote in a response above, Putin's original excuse for making war on Ukraine was to eliminate Nazis... so he said. Besides, if Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, shouldn't that be their right as a sovereign nation?

like I said if biden had said ukraine can't join ukraine and russia still invaded then that would be different. peace talks should have been held instead of biden just say he will give weapons to ukraine,

peace talks should have involved an agreement that ukraine does not join nato and in exchange putin does not invade ukraine,  also a couple of other agreements, then there would be a win for both sides.

jerra b » 11 Feb 2023, 12:22 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 12:22 pm

like I said if biden had said ukraine can't join ukraine and russia still invaded then that would be different. peace talks should have been held instead of biden just say he will give weapons to ukraine,

peace talks should have involved an agreement that ukraine does not join nato and in exchange putin does not invade ukraine,  also a couple of other agreements, then there would be a win for both sides.

symbolism and semantics aren't victories to any reality never being honest about life evolving in real time.

Putin said he invaded to eliminate Nazis. Biden said what we would do depended on how much land Putin annexed. Putins first group of 250,000 mobilized were not trained, had to buy some of their own equipment, were issued WW2 equipment and ballistic vests that were next to useless. Helmets were WW2 that had a modern camo. cover, and rusty and sometimes inoperable AK,s were issued. These men were immediately sent to hold the line. Mobilized were cannon fodder but the line held. Wagner group recruited from Russia prisons. These people were promised a pardon if they survived 6 months on the line. Recruits from prison included sex offenders and many had Hep C and other diseases. Wagner has been using human wave attacks with prisoners in the battles around Bakhmut. Anyone retreating from the line were shot by Wagner regulars. Many of these prisoners surrendered to the Ukrainians. Vlad is now mobilizing an additional 500,000. Civilians were evacuated from Crimea after Ukrainians blew the Kertch bridge and Putin is now building heavy duty fortifications there. Putin does not care how many Russians are killed to further his goals. The only thing stopping Putin is the corruption and incompetence of his Army commanders and the unexpected fierce resistance of the Ukrainians. IMO Putin will succeed because of the attrition of Ukrainian forces. Negotiations will end the carnage. Putin is not going to quit.
 

johndnorth » 11 Feb 2023, 1:22 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 1:22 pm

Putin said he invaded to eliminate Nazis. Biden said what we would do depended on how much land Putin annexed. Putins first group of 250,000 mobilized were not trained, had to buy some of their own equipment, were issued WW2 equipment and ballistic vests that were next to useless. Helmets were WW2 that had a modern camo. cover, and rusty and sometimes inoperable AK,s were issued. These men were immediately sent to hold the line. Mobilized were cannon fodder but the line held. Wagner group recruited from Russia prisons. These people were promised a pardon if they survived 6 months on the line. Recruits from prison included sex offenders and many had Hep C and other diseases. Wagner has been using human wave attacks with prisoners in the battles around Bakhmut. Anyone retreating from the line were shot by Wagner regulars. Many of these prisoners surrendered to the Ukrainians. Vlad is now mobilizing an additional 500,000. Civilians were evacuated from Crimea after Ukrainians blew the Kertch bridge and Putin is now building heavy duty fortifications there. Putin does not care how many Russians are killed to further his goals. The only thing stopping Putin is the corruption and incompetence of his Army commanders and the unexpected fierce resistance of the Ukrainians. IMO Putin will succeed because of the attrition of Ukrainian forces. Negotiations will end the carnage. Putin is not going to quit.

like I said say nato cannot join nato and agree to a couple of other things, including not arresting people because they are russian sympathetic. that is what the nazis did, arrest people on trumped up charges.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opi ... e-n1290831

Russia has grown concerned again about Ukraine for a number of reasons. Analysts like Lieven and Beebe point out that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has taken a number of sharp measures to eradicate Russian influence in Ukraine recently by doing things like banning the use of Russian language in schools and state institutions, shutting down Kremlin-linked television stations and arresting some of the most prominent Russo-sympathetic leaders in the country — all while cooperating on the ground with NATO. Russia read this as a sign that Kyiv was throwing its lot in with the U.S. and the prospect of an agreement ensuring autonomy for the separatist-held Donbas region, crucial to Russia’s plan to thwart Ukraine’s NATO entry, might be dead.

-----------------------------------------------------------

it may have taken 5 minutes to negotiate a peace deal, so much easier to say the US will give weapons to Ukraine,
 

jerrab » 11 Feb 2023, 12:22 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Feb 2023, 12:22 pm

like I said if biden had said ukraine can't join ukraine and russia still invaded then that would be different. peace talks should have been held instead of biden just say he will give weapons to ukraine,

peace talks should have involved an agreement that ukraine does not join nato and in exchange putin does not invade ukraine,  also a couple of other agreements, then there would be a win for both sides.

Yes, assuming such an agreement could've been accomplished and held to.

There are two schools of thought on this. The first, which is more aligned with your argument as per this MSNC article of March '22 (I've been barred from posting actual links, so copy and past the parts in blue to find the article): Russia and Putin's Ukraine war may have been preventable - MSNBC (dot com) 

and the second, which is supported by four articles I'd published awhile back in this very thread, three of which can no longer be found, and the fourth,  Putin’s Ultimate Goal is Establishing Russia as Superpower - Observer, which argues that the annexation of Ukraine was ALWAYS part of Putin's plan. 

I've found others that support that thought as well: 

Blinken: Putin’s plan all along has been to invade Ukraine - POLITICO 

Putin laid out his Ukraine invasion rationale back in July 2021 - Fox News 

The Putin Doctrine: A Move on Ukraine Has Always Been Part of the Plan - Russiamatters (dot org) 

Frankly, from what else I've read (learned) of Putin, I'm inclined to believe the second. However, whichever notion one subscribes to, still brings us back to my initial question. As a sovereign nation doesn't Ukraine have the right to decide (on NATO alliance) for itself?  
 
 

B.See » 13 Feb 2023, 12:35 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 12:35 am

Yes, assuming such an agreement could've been accomplished and held to.

There are two schools of thought on this. The first, which is more aligned with your argument as per this MSNC article of March '22 (I've been barred from posting actual links, so copy and past the parts in blue to find the article): Russia and Putin's Ukraine war may have been preventable - MSNBC (dot com) 

and the second, which is supported by four articles I'd published awhile back in this very thread, three of which can no longer be found, and the fourth,  Putin’s Ultimate Goal is Establishing Russia as Superpower - Observer, which argues that the annexation of Ukraine was ALWAYS part of Putin's plan. 

I've found others that support that thought as well: 

Blinken: Putin’s plan all along has been to invade Ukraine - POLITICO 

Putin laid out his Ukraine invasion rationale back in July 2021 - Fox News 

The Putin Doctrine: A Move on Ukraine Has Always Been Part of the Plan - Russiamatters (dot org) 

Frankly, from what else I've read (learned) of Putin, I'm inclined to believe the second. However, whichever notion one subscribes to, still brings us back to my initial question. As a sovereign nation doesn't Ukraine have the right to decide (on NATO alliance) for itself?

does the US have a right to not want missiles aimed it from mexico?


 

jerrab » 13 Feb 2023, 1:18 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 1:18 am

does the US have a right to not want missiles aimed it from mexico?

Having Ukraine as a member of NATO doesn't automatically guarantee missiles won't be aimed at Putin. Besides I'd suspect there are missiles aplenty already aimed at him anyway.  And if you recall, Cuba was a member of the Soviet bloc even without missiles.  This still has noting to do with the right of a sovereign country to join whatever allies they choose.

Bottom line is, Putin always had his sights set on Ukraine. And not JUST Ukraine. These were known facts, even among Russian analysts, way before Biden's presidency. And Trump was on board for all of it. That's because an alliance of 'common interests' between America's right and Putin had been established long before. In fact he had written a direct 'manifesto' if you will, in a direct appeal to conservatives and right winged Americans in which he detailed said 'common interests - for the primary purpose of doing what he and his infiltrators in our media CONTINUE to do - sow hate, racial animosity, division and discord.

Which is why it came as no surprise back when Trump outright said Crimea belonged to Russia. And I've NO doubt he would've given up Ukraine as well.

STFU ***

B.See » 13 Feb 2023, 9:07 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 9:07 am

Having Ukraine as a member of NATO doesn't automatically guarantee missiles won't be aimed at Putin. Besides I'd suspect there are missiles aplenty already aimed at him anyway.  And if you recall, Cuba was a member of the Soviet bloc even without missiles.  This still has noting to do with the right of a sovereign country to join whatever allies they choose.

Bottom line is, Putin always had his sights set on Ukraine. And not JUST Ukraine. These were known facts, even among Russian analysts, way before Biden's presidency. And Trump was on board for all of it. That's because an alliance of 'common interests' between America's right and Putin had been established long before. In fact he had written a direct 'manifesto' if you will, in a direct appeal to conservatives and right winged Americans in which he detailed said 'common interests - for the primary purpose of doing what he and his infiltrators in our media CONTINUE to do - sow hate, racial animosity, division and discord.

Which is why it came as no surprise back when Trump outright said Crimea belonged to Russia. And I've NO doubt he would've given up Ukraine as well.

you have not provided one shred of proof that russia would have invaded ukraine if biden had said ukraine can't join nato, which it can't. biden shoud have done all he can to  prevent an invasion instead he dared russia when he said he would give weapons to ukraine.

 

B.See » 13 Feb 2023, 9:07 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 9:07 am

Having Ukraine as a member of NATO doesn't automatically guarantee missiles won't be aimed at Putin. Besides I'd suspect there are missiles aplenty already aimed at him anyway.  And if you recall, Cuba was a member of the Soviet bloc even without missiles.  This still has noting to do with the right of a sovereign country to join whatever allies they choose.

Bottom line is, Putin always had his sights set on Ukraine. And not JUST Ukraine. These were known facts, even among Russian analysts, way before Biden's presidency. And Trump was on board for all of it. That's because an alliance of 'common interests' between America's right and Putin had been established long before. In fact he had written a direct 'manifesto' if you will, in a direct appeal to conservatives and right winged Americans in which he detailed said 'common interests - for the primary purpose of doing what he and his infiltrators in our media CONTINUE to do - sow hate, racial animosity, division and discord.

Which is why it came as no surprise back when Trump outright said Crimea belonged to Russia. And I've NO doubt he would've given up Ukraine as well.

https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-s ... 022-03-07/

B.See » 13 Feb 2023, 9:07 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 9:07 am

Having Ukraine as a member of NATO doesn't automatically guarantee missiles won't be aimed at Putin. Besides I'd suspect there are missiles aplenty already aimed at him anyway.  And if you recall, Cuba was a member of the Soviet bloc even without missiles.  This still has noting to do with the right of a sovereign country to join whatever allies they choose.

Bottom line is, Putin always had his sights set on Ukraine. And not JUST Ukraine. These were known facts, even among Russian analysts, way before Biden's presidency. And Trump was on board for all of it. That's because an alliance of 'common interests' between America's right and Putin had been established long before. In fact he had written a direct 'manifesto' if you will, in a direct appeal to conservatives and right winged Americans in which he detailed said 'common interests - for the primary purpose of doing what he and his infiltrators in our media CONTINUE to do - sow hate, racial animosity, division and discord.

Which is why it came as no surprise back when Trump outright said Crimea belonged to Russia. And I've NO doubt he would've given up Ukraine as well.

//
 

B.See » 13 Feb 2023, 12:35 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 12:35 am

Yes, assuming such an agreement could've been accomplished and held to.

There are two schools of thought on this. The first, which is more aligned with your argument as per this MSNC article of March '22 (I've been barred from posting actual links, so copy and past the parts in blue to find the article): Russia and Putin's Ukraine war may have been preventable - MSNBC (dot com) 

and the second, which is supported by four articles I'd published awhile back in this very thread, three of which can no longer be found, and the fourth,  Putin’s Ultimate Goal is Establishing Russia as Superpower - Observer, which argues that the annexation of Ukraine was ALWAYS part of Putin's plan. 

I've found others that support that thought as well: 

Blinken: Putin’s plan all along has been to invade Ukraine - POLITICO 

Putin laid out his Ukraine invasion rationale back in July 2021 - Fox News 

The Putin Doctrine: A Move on Ukraine Has Always Been Part of the Plan - Russiamatters (dot org) 

Frankly, from what else I've read (learned) of Putin, I'm inclined to believe the second. However, whichever notion one subscribes to, still brings us back to my initial question. As a sovereign nation doesn't Ukraine have the right to decide (on NATO alliance) for itself?

biden simply does not care about children.

in afghanistan or anywhere,

--------------------------------------------------------------

https://cepr.net/us-sanctions-on-afghan ... rs-of-war/


Economic sanctions have, in recent years, become one of the most important tools of US foreign policy. There are currently more than 20 countries subjected to various sanctions from the US government.But if more Americans knew how many innocent civilians actually die as a result of these sanctions, would the worst of them be permitted?We may be about to find out in Afghanistan. Sanctions currently imposed on the country are on track to take the lives of more civilians in the coming year than have been killed by 20 years of warfare. There’s no hiding it any more.Projections through the winter estimate that 22.8 million people will face “high levels of acute food insecurity.” This is 55 percent of Afghanistan’s population, the highest ever recorded in the country. An estimated one million children are suffering from “severe acute malnutrition” this year. Children who are malnourished are more likely to die from other diseases, even when they can get enough calories and nutrients to survive. Already, 98 percent of the population is not getting enough food, according to the UN World Food Programme.
 

*************************************

Washington and its allies have argued that sanctions are a necessary response to Taliban human rights abuses, including repression of women. But it’s the people, especially the poorest, who pay the price. How many tens or hundreds of thousands of women and girls should be sacrificed in order to punish the Taliban?

Western governments, led by the US as during 20 years of war, are not likely to get any concessions from the Taliban by destroying the Afghan economy. But an enormous price will be paid by millions of innocent people, many of whom will die, as food, health care, employment, and income become increasingly scarce.

Members of the US Congress are starting to push back: four dozen sent a letter to President Biden in December noting: “The U.S. confiscation of $9.4 billion in Afghanistan’s currency reserves” is plunging the country “deeper into economic and humanitarian crisi
 

***********************************

Members of the US Congress are starting to push back: four dozen sent a letter to President Biden in December noting: “The U.S. confiscation of $9.4 billion in Afghanistan’s currency reserves” is plunging the country “deeper into economic and humanitarian crisis.”

This collective punishment is hideously wrong and immoral. The Biden administration can remove the biggest contributing factor with the stroke of a pen. They should do so immediately, before it is too late.**********************

but biden does not care at all.

jerrab » 13 Feb 2023, 1:42 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 1:42 pm

you have not provided one shred of proof that russia would have invaded ukraine if biden had said ukraine can't join nato, which it can't. biden shoud have done all he can to  prevent an invasion instead he dared russia when he said he would give weapons to ukraine.

Briandead biden's military industrial corporate puppet masters wanted Russia to invade Ukraine.  Trump getting elected and interrupting the US (read the magic negro's) plans of the past 10 years prove that.