Liberal Forum

supraTruth » 17 May 2022, 2:08 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:08 pm

IT'S THE LAW, U ******* RNC PISS ANT!

It's a DEMOCRAT law instituted by DEMOCRAT TEACHERS UNIONS which can be changed by REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS and legislators. 

We need real-world, experienced teachers who want to actually impart their knowledge and experience on young minds.  We do not need more teachers who have done NOTHING BUT go to school and teach their entire lives continue teaching and hating on children.

WE DON'T NEED NO STUPID TEACHERS!  HEY, GOVERNORS, LET SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE TEACH!!!  

impartialobserver » 17 May 2022, 2:08 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:08 pm

I have to make it short but I would start with taking the data out of the equation. In Nevada, it is highly data driven. ie, test scores. Teaching to the test does not work. There is no way to spin it, dice it, or dissect it. Teaching someone to memorize a set of concepts/ideas/facts in hopes of attaining a pre-determined result does not help someone truly understand. I could get you to memorize the teams that have won the Stanley Cup  (hockey) but that does not mean that you would truly understand what it takes to win the Cup.

True, but this has been a debate for decades. Nevada isn't the only school that is obsessed with testing. I played around with the idea of not even having grades. Students tend to be less motivated to learn or understand material when they have to reach a certain grade. They have more motivation and incentive to obtain a particular grade, then they do in just learning. It's easy to beat the system. It's not hard to get an A in a class, while not learning a thing. So, why not take out the variable that overshadows the learning? They would still get credit, but just not a grade. This way, they don't have the stress and pressure of obtaining a certain GPA. They are now free to learn. 

Vegas » 17 May 2022, 2:17 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:17 pm

True, but this has been a debate for decades. Nevada isn't the only school that is obsessed with testing. I played around with the idea of not even having grades. Students tend to be less motivated to learn or understand material when they have to reach a certain grade. They have more motivation and incentive to obtain a particular grade, then they do in just learning. It's easy to beat the system. It's not hard to get an A in a class, while not learning a thing. So, why not take out the variable that overshadows the learning? They would still get credit, but just not a grade. This way, they don't have the stress and pressure of obtaining a certain GPA. They are now free to learn.

No, Nevada is not the only one. However, we could be examples of how to actually have the students learn fundamentals and not just memorize a given set of ideas. Also, test scores are a way of comparing our state to another. Hence, why they are so beholden to them. 

When I taught graduate courses in statistics... I had very few graded items. Not just laziness. It was to make the class less formulaic and predictable. It forced the students to really pay attention and not just coast through on autopilot

Just be ready to act when the time is right.
Life is still too easy and good for the vast majority of Conservatives..so the time really is a far ways off from being right to take serious, life changing action.

Skans » 17 May 2022, 2:12 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:12 pm

It's a DEMOCRAT law instituted by DEMOCRAT TEACHERS UNIONS which can be changed by REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS and legislators. 

We need real-world, experienced teachers who want to actually impart their knowledge and experience on young minds.  We do not need more teachers who have done NOTHING BUT go to school and teach their entire lives continue teaching and hating on children.

WE DON'T NEED NO STUPID TEACHERS!  HEY, GOVERNORS, LET SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE TEACH!!!  

you use a keyword that fires up my instincts when someone is playing psychological class warfare. "Mind". Mind is obedient to suggestion ignoring what is actually taking place.

Remember the movie "The Paper Chase" Professor Kingsfield calling everyone in his class young minds full of mush? The original movie came out in 1973 and I didn't like the role of Kingsfield then anymore than I did when Houseman did the series.

Couldn't explain it back then, now I can.

omh » 17 May 2022, 2:37 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:37 pm

you use a keyword that fires up my instincts when someone is playing psychological class warfare. "Mind". Mind is obedient to suggestion ignoring what is actually taking place.

Sorry, you don't make the cut little buddy.  You won't be teaching anyone anything.

Skans » 17 May 2022, 2:41 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:41 pm

Sorry, you don't make the cut little buddy.  You won't be teaching anyone anything.

you made up the grade that doesn't come with evolving in plain sight.

I can't comment on the way I'd like to combat it.

impartialobserver » 17 May 2022, 2:08 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:08 pm

I have to make it short but I would start with taking the data out of the equation. In Nevada, it is highly data driven. ie, test scores. Teaching to the test does not work. There is no way to spin it, dice it, or dissect it. Teaching someone to memorize a set of concepts/ideas/facts in hopes of attaining a pre-determined result does not help someone truly understand. I could get you to memorize the teams that have won the Stanley Cup  (hockey) but that does not mean that you would truly understand what it takes to win the Cup.

Poor analogy, and here's why:

• Many subjects require rote memorization:  Anatomy, spelling, math, chemistry...I could go on, but I think you get the point;
• Hardly anyone wins the Stanley Cup.  The academic equivalent would be engaging in research leading to the publication of a ground-breaking physics article about the discovery of a new particle that requires a revision to the Standard Model.
• I agree that not all teaching should be geared toward standardized tests. But, there does need to be a degree of standardization as to what is taught to children in different subjects at different ages.
• Teachers do need to be evaluated, promoted, demoted, and/or fired based on merit.  What determines that merit should be made up of more than just student performance.  However, student performance should not be ignored either.

Skans » 17 May 2022, 3:02 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:02 pm

Poor analogy, and here's why:

• Many subjects require rote memorization:  Anatomy, spelling, math, chemistry...I could go on, but I think you get the point;
• Hardly anyone wins the Stanley Cup.  The academic equivalent would be engaging in research leading to the publication of a ground-breaking physics article about the discovery of a new particle that requires a revision to the Standard Model.
• I agree that not all teaching should be geared toward standardized tests. But, there does need to be a degree of standardization as to what is taught to children in different subjects at different ages.
• Teachers do need to be evaluated, promoted, demoted, and/or fired based on merit.  What determines that merit should be made up of more than just student performance.  However, student performance should not be ignored either.

About the Stanley Cup, it was just an example. If you were to memorize the last 25 winners of it, does that alone tell you about what a team should do today to win it? Answer... no. The favorite to win the Cup this year is Colorado.... they have not been to a Stanley cup final since 2001. Rote memorization would not help you predict the winner this year.

Hate to tell you but teaching to the test does not work. Yes, rote memorization has its place but if you want someone to really understand a concept and be able to apply it in different settings.. you have to teach process not result. Teaching to the test gives the student a very narrow view of the concept... step away from that perfectly manicured framework and they are clueless. 
 

impartialobserver » 17 May 2022, 2:27 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 2:27 pm

No, Nevada is not the only one. However, we could be examples of how to actually have the students learn fundamentals and not just memorize a given set of ideas. Also, test scores are a way of comparing our state to another. Hence, why they are so beholden to them. 

When I taught graduate courses in statistics... I had very few graded items. Not just laziness. It was to make the class less formulaic and predictable. It forced the students to really pay attention and not just coast through on autopilot

That's what I am saying. The less grades, the more learning. Yes, testing is a way to compare state to state. But why compare? What purpose does it serve to compare state to state? 

impartialobserver » 17 May 2022, 3:09 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:09 pm

Hate to tell you but teaching to the test does not work. Yes, rote memorization has its place but if you want someone to really understand a concept and be able to apply it in different settings.. you have to teach process not result. Teaching to the test gives the student a very narrow view of the concept... step away from that perfectly manicured framework and they are clueless.
 

I believe I said the exact same thing you are saying.  Go back and re-read what I said. 

Before you can teach processes, your students often need to learn rote memorization.  With simple math, it's the tables.   You can teach algebra all day long, but if kids don't memorize the formula for the quadratic equation, factoring formulas, matrix formulas etc, how do you even get into higher level algebra?


 

Vegas » 17 May 2022, 3:18 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:18 pm

That's what I am saying. The less grades, the more learning. Yes, testing is a way to compare state to state. But why compare? What purpose does it serve to compare state to state?

Simple answer... politics and grant funding.

impartialobserver » 17 May 2022, 3:20 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:20 pm

Simple answer... politics and grant funding.

The funding part is already irrationally allocated. 

Skans » 17 May 2022, 3:19 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:19 pm

I believe I said the exact same thing you are saying.  Go back and re-read what I said. 

Before you can teach processes, your students often need to learn rote memorization.  With simple math, it's the tables.   You can teach algebra all day long, but if kids don't memorize the formula for the quadratic equation, factoring formulas, matrix formulas etc, how do you even get into higher level algebra?

I guess that I can at it from the standpoint of someone who taught economics and statistics at the graduate level and at a community college. The students were clueless when I asked them to really explain a concept to me. Yes, they could spit out some curated, memorized stuff but they had no fundamental understanding. For example, they could do a supply - demand graph but ask them to explain a vertical demand line and you may as well be speaking Uzbek. 

impartialobserver » 17 May 2022, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:22 pm

I guess that I can at it from the standpoint of someone who taught economics and statistics at the graduate level and at a community college. The students were clueless when I asked them to really explain a concept to me. Yes, they could spit out some curated, memorized stuff but they had no fundamental understanding. For example, they could do a supply - demand graph but ask them to explain a vertical demand line and you may as well be speaking Uzbek.

Well, first, community college needs to be separated out from graduate level economics.  I would expect much more from those who are working toward a masters or PhD in economics. But, ****, even at that level, WITH NO REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, you are probably expecting too much.

At the community college level, you'd be lucky if they understood what equilibrium is.  As for the vertical demand curve, that's more of a philosophical concept than economic modeling. Seriously, how would you define infinite demand?  Or, I suppose, demand which simply cannot ever be satisfied?
 
 
 

Skans » 17 May 2022, 9:18 am » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 9:18 am

What's the best way to combat leftism?
1.  Retake our education system, purge it of all liberals and leftists and fill the rolls with real educators, conservatives and strict constructionists?
2.  By force - i.e. violent revolution?
3.  By exclusivity movements - clubs, organizations, societies, churches, etc. which have strict sets of rules prohibiting globalists, liberals and leftists?
4.  By capturing and manipulating technology against the proliferation of leftism?

Other thoughts are welcome.

You cannot replace the teachers with real educators because rightwing assholes are themselves poorly educated. And the reason so many Liberals are teachers is because they enjoy teaching and learning, they empathize with children.  Rightwingers do NOT enjoy any of this. And of course, you'd have to pay more, and right wingers are misers, greedheads and skinflints. Like YOU, Skans, you would never be a teacher.

Skans » 17 May 2022, 3:29 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:29 pm

Well, first, community college needs to be separated out from graduate level economics.  I would expect much more from those who are working toward a masters or PhD in economics. But, ****, even at that level, WITH NO REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE, you are probably expecting too much.

At the community college level, you'd be lucky if they understood what equilibrium is.  As for the vertical demand curve, that's more of a philosophical concept than economic modeling. Seriously, how would you define infinite demand?  Or, I suppose, demand which simply cannot ever be satisfied?

So.. didn't you just define it there?  A demand which can never be satisfied. Like the demand to always be stylish, to keep up with the proverbial Jones/ Or perhaps opiate addiction.
 

Xavier_Onassis » 17 May 2022, 3:32 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 3:32 pm

You cannot replace the teachers with real educators because rightwing assholes are themselves poorly educated. And the reason so many Liberals are teachers is because they enjoy teaching and learning, they empathize with children.  Rightwingers do NOT enjoy any of this. And of course, you'd have to pay more, and right wingers are misers, greedheads and skinflints. Like YOU, Skans, you would never be a teacher.

In my conservative town, I had several male teachers who were retired.  They were some of the best teachers I ever had.  Strong, disciplinarians who commanded respect from students, structure in the classroom and a high degree of competence in the subjects taught.   The vast majority of my teachers, and college professors were all conservative and excellent educators.
 

Skans » 17 May 2022, 12:35 pm » wrote: ↑

17 May 2022, 12:35 pm

I'd love to see retired business men and women teaching nearly all high-school classes.

The Liberals have rigged schools to all but shut out retirees from teaching.  It's complete nonsense.

They have done no such thing. There are plenty of elderly teachers in Miami Dade schools. They have even allowed them to collect their pewnsions and contribute more to 403b's.  They are rather desperate for teachers in Florida, which is 49th in what it pays teachers.

You cannot expect right wingers to replace teachers with other right wingers, because first the teacher has to know the subject AND THEN how to make it appealing to the students. There is not one rightwinger in this entire forum that understands American history. And I cannot imagine Skans teaching.