Liberal Forum

Cannonpointer » 25 Jun 2022, 4:48 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:48 pm

Oh, those guys.

Wait. Which ones?

I'm not either. I'm saying you need to read the 4th mendment again, because you are incorrect that I have no privacy rights except as a criminal defendant.

Think about it dude.

A judge cannot issue a warrant to search for a baby in your womb because there is nothing illegalabout being pregnant lol
 

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 4:49 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:49 pm

The 4th refers to law enforcement. Not to the defendant.

No, it specificlly refers to the people - their rights. It prohibits the state from infringing on those right - but it is bout those rights, ot bout protecting criminals.

Again, even when you are NOT commiting crimes, you still have rights - you can google this stuff. I'm not making that up.​​​​​​

Cannonpointer » 25 Jun 2022, 4:54 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:54 pm

No, it specificlly refers to the people - their rights. It prohibits the state from infringing on those right - but it is bout those rights, ot bout protecting criminals.

Again, even when you are NOT commiting crimes, you still have rights - you can google this stuff. I'm not making that up.​​​​​​

The rights given to the people by the 4th is simply protection against harassment from law enforcement. It applies specifically to legal cases. 

And it provides that right by explicitly limiting what law enforcement is allowed to do. 

Again....as long as being pregnant is legal...none of this applies.


 

Beekeeper » 25 Jun 2022, 4:51 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:51 pm

There is NO protected :"right" to murder a baby in the mother's womb to be found in the Constitution.

Even RBG recognized that Roe was decided on EXTREMELY "shaky ground" and would most like be tossed as Unconstitutional.

She got exactly as she predicted would happen AND under the circumstances she said it would be decided. Even SHE never mentioned the 4th Amendment as a protection for abortion, pregnancy, or ANY OTHER reason you seem to think you have available under the 4th.

I don't relly follow RBG. But I can read, nd the 4th Amendment is about privacy - incuding privacy on one's person. 

I do not know or care what some old jew broad thinks. I just know what I think - and I think if some woman wants to drink quinine, work up a sweat and jump off a kitchen counter to bring on an abortion, the 4th has that covered. Doctors operating on her is another matter - one I believe should be decided by the states. But  a woman has every right to terminate her pregnancy - always has and always will. 
 

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm

The rights given to the people by the 4th is simply protection against harassment from law enforcement. It applies specifically to legal cases.

Like prosecuting someone for giving or getting an abortion?

Are criminal prosecutions "legal cases"?

And if they are, does the 4th Amendment become relevant, since your rights kick in when you do crime?

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm

And it provides that right by explicitly limiting what law enforcement is allowed to do. 

Again....as long as being pregnant is legal...none of this applies.

Abortion is not about being pregnant. It's about NOT being pregnant.

So - possible crime, there. So, now ya get rights.
 
 

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm

Think about it dude.

A judge cannot issue a warrant to search for a baby in your womb because there is nothing illegalabout being pregnant lol

Okay, I will bear that legal principle in mind, if I am ever pregnant. 

Cannonpointer » 25 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 4:52 pm

The right of the people to be secure in their PERSONS, papers, houses and effects shall not be infringed. I'd say abortion cn be inferred in tht, without too much of a pretzling.

The fact is, we have a right to do ANYTHING which the government is not explicitly empowered to prohibit - and abortion is not even MENTIONED in the Constitution, so - no prohibition there.

No, they are specific to limiting the state.

Even non-criminals have rights.

this is a good argument for the Roe v Wade decision.  However, I believe that state constitutions should trump the US constitution when they are in conflict.  Of course they don’t, and that is why I am glad Roe v Wade was struck down . 

from a purely constitutional law pov, you are correct.  Roe v Wade was justified by the wording of the 4th.

Cannonpointer » 25 Jun 2022, 5:02 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:02 pm

Like prosecuting someone for giving or getting an abortion?

Are criminal prosecutions "legal cases"?

And if they are, does the 4th Amendment become relevant, since your rights kick in when you do crime?

Abortion is not about being pregnant. It's about NOT being pregnant.

So - possible crime, there. So, now ya get rights.

Sure. You can have rights of a defendant but that doesn't mean abortion must be legal lol. 

Someone who commits murder has the exact same rights. Should murder be legal by your same argument?

Should everything be legal?

SJConspirator » 25 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm

this is a good argument for the Roe v Wade decision.  However, I believe that state constitutions should trump the US constitution when they are in conflict.  Of course they don’t, and that is why I am glad Roe v Wade was struck down . 

from a purely constitutional law pov, you are correct.  Roe v Wade was justified by the wording of the 4th.

I totally disagree

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 5:10 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:10 pm

I totally disagree

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by …

The criminalization and prosecution of a specific, individual abortion would require a knowledge of the woman’s pregnancy a priori.  That prerequisite knowledge could be considered an illegal search of her person

Let's say selling drugs is illegal and you are selling drugs.

And then you decide f this I don't wanna sell drugs and flush it down the toilet.

One could argue that the 'spirit' of the 4th makes you innocent. Cause a judge may find probable cause to search your home...delayed some time...but if they find no drugs they have no case.

Okay I'll grant that potential argument for that specific sort of case. It isn't necessarily the explicit intent of the law but it does without question provide that recourse. A crisis of conscious might give a man absolition. Lol. Okay let's assume that.

But you cannot apply this to abortion unless it is illegal to get pregnant.

Simple as.

SJConspirator » 25 Jun 2022, 5:14 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:14 pm

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by …

The criminalization and prosecution of a specific, individual abortion would require a knowledge of the woman’s pregnancy a priori.  That prerequisite knowledge could be considered an illegal search of her person

this is like saying murder has to be legal cause you need to know the murdered person was once alive. 

No dude. Even if you try to construct logistical impossibilities like this for any potential prosecutor...it doesn't mean you can't make murder illegal. Even if it is simply for ceremonial purposes.

SJConspirator » 25 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm

this is a good argument for the Roe v Wade decision.  However, I believe that state constitutions should trump the US constitution when they are in conflict.  Of course they don’t, and that is why I am glad Roe v Wade was struck down . 

from a purely constitutional law pov, you are correct.  Roe v Wade was justified by the wording of the 4th.

Well, I'm not defending roe. I've never read it. AND I don't agree with it. I believe a state can outlaw a medical procedure - that is, criminalize its performance. I'm saying a woman has a right to privacy in her person - I'm not saying a doctor has a right to perform an abortion. I don't see that in the Constitution. 
 
 

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 5:17 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:17 pm

this is like saying murder has to be legal cause you need to know the murdered person was once alive. 

No dude. Even if you try to construct logistical impossibilities like this for any potential prosecutor...it doesn't mean you can't make murder illegal. Even if it is simply for ceremonial purposes.

apples and oranges.  Murder is not abortion, unless the victim somehow crawled up in the murderers stomach and camped out there, in which case the murder would be justified as it would be an unreasonable seizure of the perps body.
 

Cannonpointer » 25 Jun 2022, 5:18 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:18 pm

Well, I'm not defending roe. I've never read it. AND I don't agree with it. I believe a state caan outlaw a medical procedure - that is, criminalize its performance. I'm saying  woman has a right to privacy in her person - I'm not saying a doctor has a right to perform an abortion. I don't see that in the Constitution.

And if I go around randomly killing *** and the state charges me with murder. 

Would you say that is a private matter?

Are you not in effect attempting to deconstruct literally every conceivable law?
 

SJConspirator » 25 Jun 2022, 5:20 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:20 pm

apples and oranges.  Murder is not abortion, unless the victim somehow crawled up in the murderers stomach and camped out there, in which case the murder would be justified as it would be an unreasonable seizure of the perps body.

some people absolutely do think abortion is murder.

But this is besides the point. 

My question is simply that based on your own strained logic....WHAT can be illegal? Anything?

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 5:22 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:22 pm

And if I go around randomly killing *** and the state charges me with murder. 

Would you say that is a private matter?

Are you not in effect attempting to deconstruct literally every conceivable law?

if the *** all tried to gestate inside you for nine months, then that’s comparable

Like the police department could go around executing any woman they suspect of having an abortion.

And when questioned about this they could simply say 'oh...this is a private matter'

FOS » 25 Jun 2022, 5:23 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:23 pm

some people absolutely do think abortion is murder.

But this is besides the point. 

My question is simply that based on your own strained logic....WHAT can be illegal? Anything?

nothing I do with my own body should be illegal, so long as it harms nobody else.  That second part is the sticking point in the case of abortion.  

SJConspirator » 25 Jun 2022, 5:23 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jun 2022, 5:23 pm

if the *** all tried to gestate inside you for nine months, then that’s comparable

so...what...you want a 9 month statue of limitations for murder? Lol 

I'm not following your logic