Liberal Forum

Where to begin...sheesh.

People have been overwhelmed recently with certain ideas. Mainly an assortment of arbitrary ethical constructs that they think should be installed into the government somehow.

The main premise of 'Marxism' is that exploitation is bad and that capitalism causes exploitation.

But almost has a very sophisticated concept beyond that, it seems. Nor do they seem have any idea how to solve that problem. Some people seem to think that by shutting on white people they will somehow produce a socialist utopia. That is, of course, absurd. Nobody thinks Haiti is a socialist utopia. But amazingly people really have gone that insane. 

The other funny thing about Marxism is that it doesn't seem to be able to define exactly what exploitation is or what is wrong with it. Most people would say that the feudal serfdom that occurred prior to capitalism involved more exploitation than capitalism...but if you actually research about the life of serfs or even indeed the African slaves you will find that overall they were happy with their situation. Indeed slaves tend to dislike being freed and report that they preferred slavery. The majority of humans actually prefer the security and simplicity of slavery...this is a thing that Marxists and liberals alike fail to understand. 

Indeed the human being is a lifeform...and our method of survival is via mass cooperation and specialization. We are adapted to a survival strategy very similar to ants or bees.. is the marxist offended by the ant queen exploiting her workers? Of course not...that is just what ants do. And that is what humans do as well...politics is just a product of our natural instinct just as much as the ant. The only complicating factor is that technology changes much more rapidly than our instincts. 



 
 

But the modern man seems unable to view politics as some tool for the survival and thriving of a particular species of animal...instead they think that politics must express some Deep Purpose...i.e. 'Progress'...although nobody can really articulate what the end point of progress is supposed to be...although often when they try they seem to agree that it means the extinction of the human species either via transhumanism or saving the planet...which is a very odd goal for humans 5o have Indeed. 
 
 
 

Now I agree with the Marxists that capitalism has caused our societies to malfunction..and our declining birth rate is proof of that. But the solution to capitalism comes from the one place we are not allowed to look: the nazis. The way to put an end to class warfare is by taking advantage of the kin selection instinct so that we all feel a great sense of belonging and we care about the welfare of fellow citizens...and also by putting strong limits on the ability for money to simply make money by itself (from usury, rent, stocks, etc). 

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 5:07 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 5:07 pm

Where to begin...sheesh.

People have been overwhelmed recently with certain ideas. Mainly an assortment of arbitrary ethical constructs that they think should be installed into the government somehow.

The main premise of 'Marxism' is that exploitation is bad and that capitalism causes exploitation.

But almost has a very sophisticated concept beyond that, it seems. Nor do they seem have any idea how to solve that problem. Some people seem to think that by shutting on white people they will somehow produce a socialist utopia. That is, of course, absurd. Nobody thinks Haiti is a socialist utopia. But amazingly people really have gone that insane. 

The other funny thing about Marxism is that it doesn't seem to be able to define exactly what exploitation is or what is wrong with it. Most people would say that the feudal serfdom that occurred prior to capitalism involved more exploitation than capitalism...but if you actually research about the life of serfs or even indeed the African slaves you will find that overall they were happy with their situation. Indeed slaves tend to dislike being freed and report that they preferred slavery. The majority of humans actually prefer the security and simplicity of slavery...this is a thing that Marxists and liberals alike fail to understand. 

Indeed the human being is a lifeform...and our method of survival is via mass cooperation and specialization. We are adapted to a survival strategy very similar to ants or bees.. is the marxist offended by the ant queen exploiting her workers? Of course not...that is just what ants do. And that is what humans do as well...politics is just a product of our natural instinct just as much as the ant. The only complicating factor is that technology changes much more rapidly than our instincts.

nefarious101 » 23 Aug 2022, 5:44 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 5:44 pm

Need me to explain anything?

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 6:21 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 6:21 pm

Need me to explain anything?

nope....I get the essence of the post

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 5:07 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 5:07 pm

 The majority of humans actually prefer the security and simplicity of slavery...

And how are we going to decide who to be a slave? I suggest putting an apple on ones had and chop it in half with a sword. If he **** - will be slave.
 

dickens » 23 Aug 2022, 6:33 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 6:33 pm

And how are we going to decide who to be a slave? I suggest putting an apple on ones had and chop it in half with a sword. If he **** - will be slave.

you don't get it dude. All of us are slaves already. It is our nature. The only challenge in front of us is how to make the beehive functional again. 

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 7:15 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 7:15 pm

you don't get it dude. All of us are slaves already. It is our nature. The only challenge in front of us is how to make the beehive functional again.
 

Hegel in The Phenomenology of Mind argued that the difference between master and slave is in the attitude towards death. Hegel described slave consciousness as follows 

 For this consciousness was not in peril and fear for this element or that, nor for this or that moment of time, it was afraid for its entire being; it felt the fear of death, the sovereign master. It has been in that experience melted to its inmost soul, has trembled throughout its every fibre, and all that was fixed and steadfast has quaked within it.

I proposed a real life situation which will bring this Hegelian moment. And will allow to identify who ought to be a slave in Plato's Ideal State.
 

dickens » 23 Aug 2022, 7:49 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 7:49 pm

Hegel in The Phenomenology of Mind argued that the difference between master and slave is in the attitude towards death. Hegel described slave consciousness as follows 

I proposed a real life situation which will bring this Hegelian moment. And will allow to identify who ought to be a slave in Plato's Ideal State.

Hegel was not aware of genetic science
 

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 8:55 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 8:55 pm

Hegel was not aware of genetic science

Danger activates in the blood of a natural slave the gene of cowardice.
 
 

dickens » 23 Aug 2022, 8:58 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 8:58 pm

Danger activates in the blood of a natural slave the gene of cowardice.

There are not real masters and slaves. The basic nature of all humans that are the same race is basically the same when it comes to social hierarchy. Prople may differ in intelligence and character and naturally fall into different roles. But the formation of the state and the nature of power is automatic. It happens without us having to think about it...just like we automatically learn the language of our parents as young children 
 

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 5:08 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 5:08 pm

Now I agree with the Marxists that capitalism has caused our societies to malfunction..and our declining birth rate is proof of that. But the solution to capitalism comes from the one place we are not allowed to look: the nazis. The way to put an end to class warfare is by taking advantage of the kin selection instinct so that we all feel a great sense of belonging and we care about the welfare of fellow citizens...and also by putting strong limits on the ability for money to simply make money by itself (from usury, rent, stocks, etc).

Funny, I asked my sister how she felt about the draft. She was against it - said government has no right. That people should be free to decide if they support a war.

Then I asked her how she would feel about me, if I refused to defend our home - up to and including taking the fight to the enemy. That question was rhetorical, of course. 

Then I expounded on the concept of a racial nation state - and why the draft would not even be NEEDED, but would make a lot more sense. 

She finally "got it."

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 9:03 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 9:03 pm

There are not real masters and slaves. The basic nature of all humans that are the same race is basically the same when it comes to social hierarchy. Prople may differ in intelligence and character and naturally fall into different roles. But the formation of the state and the nature of power is automatic. It happens without us having to think about it...just like we automatically learn the language of our parents as young children

Is this your catechism or what?

The initial division on clean and unclean was based on bodily cleanness as Nietzsche writes in Genealogy of Morals. A coward who dirties his pants with excrement cannot possibly be clean.
 
 

dickens » 23 Aug 2022, 10:26 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 10:26 pm

Is this your catechism or what?

The initial division on clean and unclean was based on bodily cleanness as Nietzsche writes in Genealogy of Morals. A coward who dirties his pants with excrement cannot possibly be clean.

I have plenty of respect for folks like hegel and bietzsche. They were very smart people. But they didn't know modern biology...ok? That is the puzzle piece you are missing. Human behavior is genetic. The way we gorm societies is also based on instincts informed by genetics. Every wolf pack has an alpha and every tribe has a chieftain. Even if humans fooled themselves into thinking we wanted an egalitarian society we would be unable to. 

FOS » 23 Aug 2022, 7:15 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 7:15 pm

you don't get it dude. All of us are slaves already. It is our nature. The only challenge in front of us is how to make the beehive functional again.

The difference is that bees have no interest in individual pursuits. They are wired to serve the queen bee. That's it. In fact, humans are the only lifeforms, to my knowledge, that has this desire. Even some of our closest cousins, monkeys and apes, don't have an innate individual ambition. If someone wants me to spend my life serving them at the cost of expunging my individual desires, I will rebel instantly. **** that person. 

Vegas » 23 Aug 2022, 10:37 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 10:37 pm

The difference is that bees have no interest in individual pursuits. They are wired to serve the queen bee. That's it. In fact, humans are the only lifeforms, to my knowledge, that has this desire. Even some of our closest cousins, monkeys and apes, don't have an innate individual ambition. If someone wants me to spend my life serving them at the cost of expunging my individual desires, I will rebel instantly. **** that person.

every successful society subjugates the desires of the individual for the well being of the group.  The most masculine trait, and the mark of a mature adult, is being able to sacrifice for the benefit of the family.  Sacrifice often comes in the form of sacrificing time, a father will work endless hours at things he does not enjoy, to provide for and protect his children.

SJConspirator » 23 Aug 2022, 10:42 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 10:42 pm

every successful society subjugates the desires of the individual for the well being of the group.  The most masculine trait, and the mark of a mature adult, is being able to sacrifice for the benefit of the family.  Sacrifice often comes in the form of sacrificing time, a father will work endless hours at things he does not enjoy, to provide for and protect his children.

That father can also do whatever he wants. He doesn't have to do that, he isn't wired by nature with an instinct to follow through with that, like bees and ants. Bees and ants don't consciously choose, from their own volition, to serve. 

Vegas » 23 Aug 2022, 10:44 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 10:44 pm

That father can also do whatever he wants. He doesn't have to do that, he isn't wired by nature with an instinct to follow through with that, like bees and ants. Bees and ants don't consciously choose, from their own volition, to serve.

humans aren’t wired to rebel either.  Humans by nature are mostly social creatures who conform to social norms.  They form hierarchies and authoritarian rules for society to follow.

It’s true that many humans are anarchists, extreme libertarians, etc.. they are outliers.  I think most people are like ants or bees, but not everyone of course.

SJConspirator » 23 Aug 2022, 10:49 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Aug 2022, 10:49 pm

humans aren’t wired to rebel either.  Humans by nature are mostly social creatures who conform to social norms.  They form hierarchies and authoritarian rules for society to follow.

It’s true that many humans are anarchists, extreme libertarians, etc.. they are outliers.  I think most people are like ants or bees, but not everyone of course.

I don't think any humans are meant to be like ants or bees. They may have fallen into those ways, but that is contrary to our nature. We are wired to rebel when enslaved. Slavery always has rebellions.