Liberal Forum

Subjects and debate on here are far too trifling.  It digresses to continuous response streams of little more than name calling.

How about a substantive thread.  For example expenditures.

What are your priorities for government spending and cuts?  Do we need more or less government?

Defense
Entitlements (SS, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc.)
Roads
Education
IRS
NASA
etc.  List your favorite and least favorite.

 
 

It's funny how so many casually use the word "entitlements" without any shame.

B.Seeisashill » 07 Sep 2022, 1:21 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:21 pm

It's funny how so many casually use the word "entitlements" without any shame.

And your term?  Obviously you have a term which you feel better conveys or obscures what these are?  Whatever term you prefer to change it to, what is your position?

My SS account was a hand shake agreement between Uncle Sam.. and myself.
If I live beyond the age that Uncle Sam was betting that I would die at..then I end up the winner....but if I die early then Uncle Sam wins.
This Gentlemans' Bet between me and Uncle Sugar is not an entitlement.

LibDave » 07 Sep 2022, 1:23 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:23 pm

And your term?  Obviously you have a term which you feel better conveys or obscures what these are?  Whatever term you prefer to change it to, what is your position?

My position is that you're not entitled to ebt.

Words have meaning.

LibDave » 07 Sep 2022, 1:19 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:19 pm

Subjects and debate on here are far too trifling.  It digresses to continuous response streams of little more than name calling.

How about a substantive thread.  For example expenditures.

What are your priorities for government spending and cuts?  Do we need more or less government?

Defense - Needs to have budget reduced by 40%, and then audited and re-evaluated year by year
Entitlements (SS, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc.) - Budget for Entitlements should be reduced by 90%.
Roads - Reduce the budget for infrastructure by at least 30%
Education  - on the Federal level eliminate it altogether.  Education is run state by state. States can pay for 1st - 12; individuals can pay for anything outside of that.
IRS - reduce their budget by 50% and eliminate any worker that was hired under "Affirmative Action".
NASA - reduce budget by 30%, and audit it year to year, with cuts for any metric promised but not met.  For example, if they receive a line item to send a mission to Mars by 2025, if that goal isn't met, then scrap the program.  Do it once, and the bureaucrats will learn that this is for real.

My answers in red above.
 
 

GHETTOBLASTER » 07 Sep 2022, 1:25 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:25 pm

My SS account was a hand shake agreement between Uncle Sam.. and myself.
If I live beyond the age that Uncle Sam was betting that I would die at..then I end up the winner....but if I die early then Uncle Sam wins.
This Gentlemans' Bet between me and Uncle Sugar is not an entitlement.

Fair enough.  And you believe you come out ahead if you survive for some number of years?

Skans » 07 Sep 2022, 1:29 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:29 pm

My answers in red above.

Good list.  Best discussion on here to date.  Concrete examples.  I like that.  You have my vote.

LibDave » 07 Sep 2022, 1:45 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:45 pm

Fair enough.  And you believe you come out ahead if you survive for some number of years?

I never took the time to figure out what my "break even" age is..but regardless of how well the fund is managed...this is not an "entitlement"

 

LibDave » 07 Sep 2022, 1:23 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:23 pm

And your term?  Obviously you have a term which you feel better conveys or obscures what these are?  Whatever term you prefer to change it to, what is your position?

Social Security IS an entitlement!!!  I was forced to pay into the SS System for over 40 years, therefore, I and others, are ENTITLED to what was promised for being forced to pay into that system.

Food stamps, AFDC, housing subsidies, people that NEVER paid into the SS System that get disability from it, corporate subsidies, etc are NOT entitlements.  They are all forms WELFARE for deadbeats!!!
 

I am not so focused on how we spend tax dollars as much as staying within budget. Let congress figure out priorities based on input from their constituents but don't spend a dime more than we collect in revenue. Lesbian alcoholic studies? Gulf shrimp on treadmills? Sure, but that money has to be taken from somewhere else.
 

GHETTOBLASTER » 07 Sep 2022, 2:03 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 2:03 pm

I never took the time to figure out what my "break even" age is..but regardless of how well the fund is managed...this is not an "entitlement"
 

Perhaps.  There are differences.  My opinion is there is no break even point.  Which is why i consider it more of an entitlement.  Entitled at a certain age.  Government funded.  Loses money.

For example, if you consider SS to be a sort of insurance policy for the event you reach old age then it could be compared to a retirement account.  However, a major difference is a retirement account remains yours and is passed on to your heirs when you die.  The rules regarding survivor benefits are ridiculous in comparison with a retirement account.  I'm familiar with these as I worked with a friend of mine with 6 children who was widowed.  We'll call her Debbie.

Debbie had 6 children with her husband.  Her husband died of Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma before either reached retirement age.  She didn't work and was a stay at home mom.  Survivor benefit rules meant she was entitled to 50% of her husbands eligibility for 18 years.  Of her 6 children (1 adopted) only 1 was still below the age of 18.  Surviving children over the age of 18 receive no benefits.  Each child under age 18 can receive a portion of the remaining 50% up to 1/6th of the  benefit amount until age 18.  So in Debbie's case her husbands benefit was about 18,000 per year after paying in for 40 years.  We'll call it 20K/year to make it easy.  So Debbie gets 10,000/year for 18 years and her 11 year old daughter gets 1/6th of that for 7 years until she turns 18 or about 1,700/year.  All told, 11,700 for 7 years then 10,000 for 11 or about 190,000 over 18 years if she lives that long.  Yet at just 2% rate of return it would be over twice that much.

In other words the only way to get the entire survivor amount they would have to have had 6 children born when he died.

Even so, if you consider the amount paid should you be fortunate enough to live that long, let's consider the benefit. You pay in 7.2% of each paycheck plus your employer must match that amount. So in essence you pay in 14.4% of your paychecks for life (half is hidden and paid by your employer). If you are self-employed you pay the entire 14.4%. If you die before retirement (excluding survivor benefits which as shown don't amount to much) you will not receive anything in return. If you survive to retirement and remain alive for 18 years (average life expectancy) you will receive back what you paid in plus a 2% rate of return.

For those of you familiar with retirement accounts you know this is a horrid rate of return. It doesn't even cover inflation. And Inflation is calculated in a manner deliberately intended to under estimate the rate of inflation.

As a comparison I put 15% of my income into tax deferred and after-tax retirement accounts for 30 years (10 years fewer). After just 30 years I withdrew $900,000 to purchase a home and have $1.4 Million remaining for when I retire. Gains on the 1.4 Million remaining are normally around 150,000/year (sometimes more, sometimes less). This is 20X what you get from SS! And it wasn't like my investment choices were akin to Warren Buffet's picks. To put it in a better perspective, these are my accounts and if I die early my children will receive the money, unlike SS where the government says, "Oh so sorry, We win!".

They force you to put money into SS at the point of a gun because no one would invest in such a one-sided contract. I could in fact pay 1/20th the amount into a life insurance policy and my heirs would get back the same amount no matter when I died.
 

GHETTOBLASTER » 07 Sep 2022, 2:03 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 2:03 pm

I never took the time to figure out what my "break even" age is..but regardless of how well the fund is managed...this is not an "entitlement"

I disagree.  It is a system you were forced to pay into in return for a promise of future benefits.  WE are entitled to those benefits as we paid into the system.

Reagan and Greenspan **** the working class when he and Greenspan cooked up the scheme to raise the payroll tax by telling Congress and the working class that it would make the SS System solvent  for retirees for generations.  But in reality is was to make up for the budget shortfalls caused by Reagan's tax cuts for his rich buddies for helping him get elected.  The new payroll tax revenue was simply put into general revenue and spent.

https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/04/how- ... an-people/
 

LibDave » 07 Sep 2022, 2:54 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 2:54 pm

Perhaps.  There are differences.  My opinion is there is no break even point.  Which is why i consider it more of an entitlement.  Entitled at a certain age.  Government funded.  Loses money.

For example, if you consider SS to be a sort of insurance policy for the event you reach old age then it could be compared to a retirement account.  However, a major difference is a retirement account remains yours and is passed on to your heirs when you die.  The rules regarding survivor benefits are ridiculous in comparison with a retirement account.  I'm familiar with these as I worked with a friend of mine with 6 children who was widowed.  We'll call her Debbie.

Debbie had 6 children with her husband.  Her husband died of Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma before either reached retirement age.  She didn't work and was a stay at home mom.  Survivor benefit rules meant she was entitled to 50% of her husbands eligibility for 18 years.  Of her 6 children (1 adopted) only 1 was still below the age of 18.  Surviving children over the age of 18 receive no benefits.  Each child under age 18 can receive a portion of the remaining 50% up to 1/6th of the  benefit amount until age 18.  So in Debbie's case her husbands benefit was about 18,000 per year after paying in for 40 years.  We'll call it 20K/year to make it easy.  So Debbie gets 10,000/year for 18 years and her 11 year old daughter gets 1/6th of that for 7 years until she turns 18 or about 1,700/year.  All told, 11,700 for 7 years then 10,000 for 11 or about 190,000 over 18 years if she lives that long.  Yet at just 2% rate of return it would be over twice that much.

In Debbys' case it was an entitlement
I was already aware of this.
Has nothing to do with me.

Buffalo » 07 Sep 2022, 2:58 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 2:58 pm

I disagree.  It is a system you were forced to pay into in return for a promise of future benefits.  WE are entitled to those benefits as we paid into the system.

Reagan and Greenspan **** the working class when he and Greenspan cooked up the scheme to raise the payroll tax by telling Congress and the working class that it would make the SS System solvent  for retirees for generations.  But in reality is was to make up for the budget shortfalls caused by Reagan's tax cuts for his rich buddies for helping him get elected.  The new payroll tax revenue was simply put into general revenue and spent.

https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/04/how- ... an-people/

The only people who are "entitled" to SS are those who don't pay into it. 
I earned every penny.that Uncle Sam bet I was ever going to live long enough to take back.

Buffalo » 07 Sep 2022, 2:58 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 2:58 pm

I disagree.  It is a system you were forced to pay into in return for a promise of future benefits.  WE are entitled to those benefits as we paid into the system.

Reagan and Greenspan **** the working class when he and Greenspan cooked up the scheme to raise the payroll tax by telling Congress and the working class that it would make the SS System solvent  for retirees for generations.  But in reality is was to make up for the budget shortfalls caused by Reagan's tax cuts for his rich buddies for helping him get elected.  The new payroll tax revenue was simply put into general revenue and spent.

https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/04/how- ... an-people/

If you collect SS from age 67 to age 85 you will receive back what you paid in but less than the rate of inflation.  In other words, you receive NOTHING as a return on what you paid in.  You're purchasing power will be less than what you paid in almost without exception.  You would have to live to 110 just to break even with inflation.  Not what I would call an "investment".

It is inexcusable for the fund to be deficient when you consider half don't even survive long enough to collect and get nothing.  The ones who do survive the government doesn't even pay enough to beat inflation?  Ridiculous!  Of course the government doesn't invest the money at all.  They use the profits (and they are large) to help offset what they tell the public is the deficit.

GHETTOBLASTER » 07 Sep 2022, 3:03 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 3:03 pm

The only people who are "entitled" to SS are those who don't pay into it. 
I earned every penny.that Uncle Sam bet I was ever going to live long enough to take back.

YOU are entitled to every penny you paid into the SS System as promised.  Those that paid nothing into the system are not entitled to anything from the SS System.
 

GHETTOBLASTER » 07 Sep 2022, 1:25 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 1:25 pm

My SS account was a hand shake agreement between Uncle Sam.. and myself.
If I live beyond the age that Uncle Sam was betting that I would die at..then I end up the winner....but if I die early then Uncle Sam wins.
This Gentlemans' Bet between me and Uncle Sugar is not an entitlement.

I understand your logic, but according to the definition Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. are entitlements.

A Federal program or provision of law that requires payments to any person or unit of government that meets the eligibility criteria established by law. Entitlements constitute a binding obligation on the part of the Federal Government, and eligible recipients have legal recourse if the obligation is not fulfilled.

Buffalo » 07 Sep 2022, 2:38 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Sep 2022, 2:38 pm

Social Security IS an entitlement!!!  I was forced to pay into the SS System for over 40 years, therefore, I and others, are ENTITLED to what was promised for being forced to pay into that system.

Food stamps, AFDC, housing subsidies, people that NEVER paid into the SS System that get disability from it, corporate subsidies, etc are NOT entitlements.  They are all forms WELFARE for deadbeats!!!

THIS. I almost made this post, held off to see if someone else did.

My SS IS an entitlement, because I paid for it and am entitled to it. 

My wefer and seckshun 8 and foot skamps are freebies that I enjoy. 

I want to thank all the little people that make it possible.

I'm just happy that I finally got my skew debt paid - I heart joe biden.