Liberal Forum

ConsRule » 13 Feb 2023, 10:42 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 10:42 am

The only person to properly blame on that play was the Philly player who committed the penalty.

...i've always loved most/all competitive sports...but football and especially basketball are f@cked as to honest consistent refereeing/rules... 

...baseball is still somewhat f@cked as to calling balls/strikes, but will/could become nearly perfect when the 'electronic strike zone' is instituted..

....tennis is what i'd call perfect... [using hawk-eye]...

....i wish US political competitions were 1/100th as honest and had competitors with 1/100th the relevant skill-level as US sports competitions...[you republicrats suck loudly in the competition of ideas about government]

...what a beautiful, great competition last night!! ...i can't imagine feeling that way after a republicrat 'debate',   a republicrat $election, etc...   

...i wish the patriots had mahomes or rogers...get rid of the brady-wanna-be gimp!!!!!    

peepee » 13 Feb 2023, 12:17 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 12:17 pm

...i've always loved most/all competitive sports...but football and especially basketball are f@cked as to honest consistent refereeing/rules... 

...baseball is still somewhat f@cked as to calling balls/strikes, but will/could become nearly perfect when the 'electronic strike zone' is instituted..

....tennis is what i'd call perfect... [using hawk-eye]...

....i wish US political competitions were 1/100th as honest and had competitors with 1/100th the relevant skill-level as US sports competitions...[you republicrats suck loudly in the competition of ideas about government]

...what a beautiful, great competition last night!! ...i can't imagine feeling that way after a republicrat 'debate',   a republicrat $election, etc...   

...i wish the patriots had mahomes or rogers...get rid of the brady-wanna-be gimp!!!!! 

The are several problems faced by officials...and I officiated basketball for 12 years, up to and including small college.

1 - The overwhelming majority of people simply DO NOT know the basic rules of the game(s) they claim to love.  And that includes current players, former players, current coaches and former coaches.
2 - Fans, parents, players and coaches either don't understand or cannot accept the concept of advantage/disadvantage.  Take the play in question, I heard someone make the comment that defenders can't touch receivers.  That is not the case.  A defender cannot unfairly hinder a receiver.  Hell, they can (and do) hold briefly and get away with it.  However, if that grab keeps the receiver from running his route fairly it is a penalty.  Admittedly, what makes the concept of advantage/disadvantage difficult is it can vary from game to game based on the skill level of the players involved and the level of competition.  Contact considered a foul/penalty in junior high is different than acceptable contact at the pro level.
3 - Except at the professional (and in some circumstances the college level) fans have the advantage of replay, multiple angles and better vantage points.  I can assure you, a fan sitting in the stands at a basketball game often has a much better view of a play than the official on the floor watching his/her primary area.  And the official gets one shot.
4 - People expect perfection from officials.  Even if the call in question was a bad call (and it wasn't).  That call didn't cost Philly the Super Bowl win.  Not stopping KC during the second half played a huge role.  We can check the box scores to make sure, but I am willing to bet everything I own the officials didn't drop any passes, miss any tackles, fumble, miss any blocks, throw any bad passes, etc.  I heard a coach on television make a comment during an interview when asked about a questionable call.  He said they need to be good enough to overcome a bad call, because officials are human.

Every time an official makes a call, half the people watching thinks their an idiot.
 

...good points...my main gripe is consistency...i mostly like the way the super bowl is reffed...regular season, not so much... 

*...oooops...'lack of consistency' 
 

             Awesome game --- exactly what a Super Bowl should be... No blow-out by half-time, and the game remained close & exciting til the end.. I didn't bother watching the Half-Time show, which probably only added to the positive experience from the day... The performances of America th Beautiful, and our National Anthem were outstanding.

            Correction... I was informed the Negro National Anthem was performed along with our National Anthem before the game... "Raise your voice and sing"?.. WTF is that?
 
 

ConsRule » 13 Feb 2023, 10:42 am » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 10:42 am

Really?  You can literally see the flag flying through the air while the play finished unfolding on the replay.  And in the replay, you can see the receiver's jersey being stretched by the defender holding it.

People will say, "The official shouldn't have thrown the flag, he influenced the end of the game with his call."  That's only looking at one side of the equation.  By rule, that was defensive holding and he saw it.  That leaves him with two options...throw the flag and influence the end of the game in favor of KC, or not throw the flag and influence the end of the game in favor of Philly.  The only person to properly blame on that play was the Philly player who committed the penalty.

I think it was a **** call, especially at that point in the game.

The game was over when the ref threw that flag, and it was unnecessary. I didn't  see where the defender prevented the receiver from running his route in the least. I completely understand that there are rules, but sometimes you gotta let the players play. It was a **** call in my personal opinion.
 

RedheadedStranger » 13 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm

I think it was a **** call, especially at that point in the game.

The game was over when the ref threw that flag, and it was unnecessary. I didn't  see where the defender prevented the receiver from running his route in the least. I completely understand that there are rules, but sometimes you gotta let the players play. It was a **** call in my personal opinion.

You're entitled to you incorrect opinion.  

What it boils down to, you wanted the official to help Philly by not making the call rather than help KC by making the call.

Even the defender admitted he held, but was hoping he would get away with it.  One of the first things an official is taught starting out...if something is a penalty/foul in the first minute of the game, it's a penalty/foul in the last minute of the game.  Be consistent...the good players will adjust (and in basketball, the ones who can't won't be around long).

ConsRule » 14 Feb 2023, 7:28 am » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 7:28 am

You're entitled to you incorrect opinion.  

What it boils down to, you wanted the official to help Philly by not making the call rather than help KC by making the call.

Even the defender admitted he held, but was hoping he would get away with it.  One of the first things an official is taught starting out...if something is a penalty/foul in the first minute of the game, it's a penalty/foul in the last minute of the game.  Be consistent...the good players will adjust (and in basketball, the ones who can't won't be around long).

No, I would have preferred to see the players actually determine the outcome at the end, rather than the referees... as seems to be the case in today's NFL.

I heard a commentator say earlier in the season, "With the rules like they are today, any official can find any number of reasons to throw a flag or overturn a call on any given play, and it's hurting the game." and I agree.

The Devonta Smith catch on the sideline is another example. In the NFL I grew up watching, that would have never even been questioned.

I personally think it's a bigger reason for the league losing viewers than Kaepernick taking a knee. The same thing has happened to NASCAR too. 

At that point in the game, KC was going to go take the lead anyway (they were in FG range already)and force Philly drive the field or lose either way. It was just disappointing to see the officials decide how it was going to play out by throwing a flag that really didn't need to be thrown.

Like I said, it's just my opinion.
​
 

RedheadedStranger » 14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am

No, I would have preferred to see the players actually determine the outcome at the end, rather than the referees... as seems to be the case in today's NFL.

I heard a commentator say earlier in the season, "With the rules like they are today, any official can find any number of reasons to throw a flag or overturn a call on any given play, and it's hurting the game." and I agree.

The Devonta Smith catch on the sideline is another example. In the NFL I grew up watching, that would have never even been questioned.

I personally think it's a bigger reason for the league losing viewers than Kaepernick taking a knee. The same thing has happened to NASCAR too. 

At that point in the game, KC was going to go take the lead anyway (they were in FG range already)and force Philly drive the field or lose either way. It was just disappointing to see the officials decide how it was going to play out by throwing a flag that really didn't need to be thrown.

Like I said, it's just my opinion.
​
 

A player did determine the outcome...by holding a receiver.  

As for losing viewers...that's a bit of a misnomer.  Total regular season traditional viewer numbers decrease this season...but Thursday Night Football moved to Amazon Prime and Monday Night Football is on ESPN...a network that is losing subscribers in general. Additionally, more and more people are watching the NFL via streaming services.  Traditional Sunday games on over-the-air broadcast platforms (Fox, CBS and NBC) have actually seen an increase in ratings.

 

peepee » 13 Feb 2023, 12:17 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 12:17 pm

...i've always loved most/all competitive sports...but football and especially basketball are f@cked as to honest consistent refereeing/rules... 

...baseball is still somewhat f@cked as to calling balls/strikes, but will/could become nearly perfect when the 'electronic strike zone' is instituted..

....tennis is what i'd call perfect... [using hawk-eye]...

....i wish US political competitions were 1/100th as honest and had competitors with 1/100th the relevant skill-level as US sports competitions...[you republicrats suck loudly in the competition of ideas about government]

...what a beautiful, great competition last night!! ...i can't imagine feeling that way after a republicrat 'debate',   a republicrat $election, etc...   

...i wish the patriots had mahomes or rogers...get rid of the brady-wanna-be gimp!!!!! 

there is one word spoken here, patrick mahomes. he is the life blood of this city and not just because he won the super bowl, he is more awesome 

than that, his personality is so outstanding and for all his accomplishments he is rather humble. kc just loves mahomes and I have been a fan for years.

for all those who voted for the eagles to win they must must have not watching the new players this year.

in regards to  the last super bowl when the chiefs lost they had just had a big shock that affected the game.
 
 

RedheadedStranger » 13 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Feb 2023, 6:47 pm

I think it was a **** call, especially at that point in the game.

The game was over when the ref threw that flag, and it was unnecessary. I didn't  see where the defender prevented the receiver from running his route in the least. I completely understand that there are rules, but sometimes you gotta let the players play. It was a **** call in my personal opinion.

like I said there was an illegal helmet slam earlier to pacheo, I am sure it was to take him completely out of the game. but it was not called as a penalty. about a month ago juju was slammed so hard he got a concussion, not called as a penalty but the bengals were fined a couple of weeks later. perhaps a deal was made to call a penalty later to avoid a fine, I don't know but the slam against pacheo could have changed the course of the game and that very well should have been a penalty, first down and at least 30 yards.
 
 

RedheadedStranger » 14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am

No, I would have preferred to see the players actually determine the outcome at the end, rather than the referees... as seems to be the case in today's NFL.

I heard a commentator say earlier in the season, "With the rules like they are today, any official can find any number of reasons to throw a flag or overturn a call on any given play, and it's hurting the game." and I agree.

The Devonta Smith catch on the sideline is another example. In the NFL I grew up watching, that would have never even been questioned.

I personally think it's a bigger reason for the league losing viewers than Kaepernick taking a knee. The same thing has happened to NASCAR too. 

At that point in the game, KC was going to go take the lead anyway (they were in FG range already)and force Philly drive the field or lose either way. It was just disappointing to see the officials decide how it was going to play out by throwing a flag that really didn't need to be thrown.

Like I said, it's just my opinion.
​

the ref said holding before the pass.


 
 

RedheadedStranger » 14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am

No, I would have preferred to see the players actually determine the outcome at the end, rather than the referees... as seems to be the case in today's NFL.

I heard a commentator say earlier in the season, "With the rules like they are today, any official can find any number of reasons to throw a flag or overturn a call on any given play, and it's hurting the game." and I agree.

The Devonta Smith catch on the sideline is another example. In the NFL I grew up watching, that would have never even been questioned.

I personally think it's a bigger reason for the league losing viewers than Kaepernick taking a knee. The same thing has happened to NASCAR too. 

At that point in the game, KC was going to go take the lead anyway (they were in FG range already)and force Philly drive the field or lose either way. It was just disappointing to see the officials decide how it was going to play out by throwing a flag that really didn't need to be thrown.

Like I said, it's just my opinion.
​

penalty was holding before the pass

15.46

https://youtu.be/BWkt79xkd00

 

RedheadedStranger » 14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 8:44 am

No, I would have preferred to see the players actually determine the outcome at the end, rather than the referees... as seems to be the case in today's NFL.

I heard a commentator say earlier in the season, "With the rules like they are today, any official can find any number of reasons to throw a flag or overturn a call on any given play, and it's hurting the game." and I agree.

The Devonta Smith catch on the sideline is another example. In the NFL I grew up watching, that would have never even been questioned.

I personally think it's a bigger reason for the league losing viewers than Kaepernick taking a knee. The same thing has happened to NASCAR too. 

At that point in the game, KC was going to go take the lead anyway (they were in FG range already)and force Philly drive the field or lose either way. It was just disappointing to see the officials decide how it was going to play out by throwing a flag that really didn't need to be thrown.

Like I said, it's just my opinion.
​

the refs ignored a huge illegal helmet hit on pacheco

17.00


https://youtu.be/_gXU353fwRk

 

jerrab » 14 Feb 2023, 5:25 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 5:25 pm

the refs ignored a huge illegal helmet hit on pacheco

17.00

https://youtu.be/_gXU353fwRk

          How's that an illegal hit?... I watched it a few times in slow-mo, and it wasn't helmet on helmet.. Definitely a hard hit, but I don't think illegal.
 

Kobia2 » 14 Feb 2023, 10:44 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 10:44 pm

          How's that an illegal hit?... I watched it a few times in slow-mo, and it wasn't helmet on helmet.. Definitely a hard hit, but I don't think illegal.

nfl rules

-----------------------------------------------

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/pos ... -roughness

f) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those players who are in virtually defenseless postures, including but not limited to1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; or(2) Lowering the head and violently or unnecessarily making forcible contact with the “hairline” or forehead part of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body; or(3) “Launching” (springing forward and upward) into a defenseless player, or otherwise striking him in a way that causes the defensive player’s helmet or facemask to forcibly strike the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face—even if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet or facemask is lower than the defenseless player’s neck. (Examples: a defender buries his facemask into a defenseless player’s high chest area, but the defender’s trajectory as he leaps into the defenseless player causes the defender’s helmet to strike the defenseless player violently in the head or face; or a defender, using a face-on posture or with his head slightly lowered, hits a defenseless player in an area below the defenseless player’s neck, then the defender’s head moves upward, resulting in strong contact by the defender’s mask or helmet with the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face [an example is the so-called “dip and rip” technique]).
 

jerrab » 14 Feb 2023, 10:53 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 10:53 pm

nfl rules

-----------------------------------------------

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/pos ... -roughness

f) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily. Although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent, game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those players who are in virtually defenseless postures, including but not limited to1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; or(2) Lowering the head and violently or unnecessarily making forcible contact with the “hairline” or forehead part of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body; or(3) “Launching” (springing forward and upward) into a defenseless player, or otherwise striking him in a way that causes the defensive player’s helmet or facemask to forcibly strike the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face—even if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet or facemask is lower than the defenseless player’s neck. (Examples: a defender buries his facemask into a defenseless player’s high chest area, but the defender’s trajectory as he leaps into the defenseless player causes the defender’s helmet to strike the defenseless player violently in the head or face; or a defender, using a face-on posture or with his head slightly lowered, hits a defenseless player in an area below the defenseless player’s neck, then the defender’s head moves upward, resulting in strong contact by the defender’s mask or helmet with the defenseless player’s head, neck, or face [an example is the so-called “dip and rip” technique]).

             I didn't have a dog in the fight, as I don't follow either team.. That said, I don't think I can recall a similar play in my many years of watching games that resulted in an illegal hit penalty... Look at #2 in the rules you posted where it's underlined & states "of the DEFENSELESS player's body" ..  He wasn't hit from behind or a blind spot, nor was he hit late or while out of bounds..  We've all seen QB's taking much bigger hits, where they were struck from behind without even having a roughing the passer penalty called.. We see the same every game with Receivers getting drilled hard in vulnerable positions, many times without them even having caught the ball.. 
 

Kobia2 » 14 Feb 2023, 11:23 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 11:23 pm

             I didn't have a dog in the fight, as I don't follow either team.. That said, I don't think I can recall a similar play in my many years of watching games that resulted in an illegal hit penalty... Look at #2 in the rules you posted where it's underlined & states "of the DEFENSELESS player's body" ..  He wasn't hit from behind or a blind spot, nor was he hit late or while out of bounds..  We've all seen QB's taking much bigger hits, where they were struck from behind without even having a roughing the passer penalty called.. We see the same every game with Receivers getting drilled hard in vulnerable positions, many times without them even having caught the ball.. 

I underlined it to show  that it is not only hits to the head. and he was grabbed by one while another slammed his helmet into him so he was pretty defenseless.
 

jerrab » 14 Feb 2023, 11:35 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 11:35 pm

I underlined it to show  that it is not only hits to the head. and he was grabbed by one while another slammed his helmet into him so he was pretty defenseless.

          Judgement call I guess, but we often see plays where a Running Back is being held up or slowed by several Tacklers and another comes in and delivers a crushing hit to stop the ball carrier's forward momentum -- especially on 3rd & short yardage plays, or Goal Line stands where bodies are launching like missiles.. 

Kobia2 » 14 Feb 2023, 11:58 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Feb 2023, 11:58 pm

          Judgement call I guess, but we often see plays where a Running Back is being held up or slowed by several Tacklers and another comes in and delivers a crushing hit to stop the ball carrier's forward momentum -- especially on 3rd & short yardage plays, or Goal Line stands where bodies are launching like missiles.. 

it was clearly to take pacheco out of the game and hurt him because pacheco is so fast and a threat to them losing, they even celebrated half way killing him.