Liberal Forum

This is a thing I have noticed when arguing recently with people who fancied themselves Marxists and scholars of marxist theory. Although I usually try to educate people on what fascism is all about...because I am more well read of fascism...I have read enough marx to get the gist of it...and the more Marxists talk the less I believe they have read any of it. 

First of all...the 'mainstream definition' (which would be sonething like 'communism is when the means are production are owned by the workers rather than private entities') is quite lame. In fact...this sounds like a definition that someone biased to be pro capitalist would make up. By itself it is rather incoherent and meaningless and also a bit absurd. Obviously you cannot magically transform a massive number of poorly educated laborers into the elite class. That simply cannot be done and the attempt would fail. And it also makes communist countries appear quite hypocritical since obviously in practice it is not the workers who have any power but rather the members of the Communist party. And anyway what is the actual difference between entities labeled as 'worker'..'private'...and state'? Workers themselves are if anything more 'private' than the state is.. and the various examples a Capitalist can give of workers 'bootstrapping' and becoming themselves members of the monied elite after a few decades of earnest work should indicate that workers have more opportunity in a Capitalist system than they would in a system where there is state control over the economy.

Everyone can do a better job of defining Marxism that you can, Nazi.

BUT my critique here is not of Marxism itself but rather the silly and imprecise definition that floats around as 'common knowledge' in the west. 

REAL Marxism is somewhat more sophisticated and more difficult to refute than that. I suppose I woukd define Marxism as 'an emancipation of the people from stifling bourgoise values'. It is meant to be more of a psychological and spiritual revolution than some redistribution of power and wealth. 

And much of this is based on Marx's concept of 'the materialist dialectic' whereby he felt he demonstrated...through a long analysis of history...that ALL exploitation and oppression has its source in the distribution of wealth. In essence you could say it is like the quote from the new testament: "the love of money is the root of all evil"

Now a fascist woukd simply consider that claim reductionist. Yes...the love of money is a character flaw.. but there are evils which have nothing to do with money.

But ultimately what marx was trying to do was produce a society where money was no longer relevant to the dominance heriarchy or to status. 

Fair enough. This does not actually require that everyone is 'equal' or everyone is the same. Many self identified Marxists will pretend this is the case themselves but I just don't think they are educated about what they identify as. 

 

Martists also often think that marx would have some serious problem with bigotry or racism and this is why he opposed nationalism. 

That is not the case.

indeed marx himself was extremely bigoted. He was rather infamous for using racial slurs as a way to critique his opponents etc. And he had no interest in trying to utilize the resentment of black people (members of what marxists call the 'lumpenproletariat') because he felt they were too dim witted to actually be useful or to properly understand the revolutionary idea of Marxism. 

What marx WOULD say, however, is that the bourgoise often use nationalism to divide workers against each other in a sort of divide and conquer tactic. And since he regarded wealth distribution to be the only thing that matters, he felt nationalism was a fake identity (something I regard as rather absurd. What could possibly be more authentic to your identity than your ancestors, your blood, your actual DNA?). Fascists would agree that oligarchs will use nationalism to divide people...but the reason they do it is because it works...because a racial and ethnic identity is so important. So the only solution would be to give the various ethnic groups a distinct space of their own...so that you cannot pit them against eachother outside of warfare between countries. 

Xavier_Onassis » 23 Feb 2023, 4:52 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2023, 4:52 pm

Everyone can do a better job of defining Marxism that you can, Nazi.

As always, your contributions are juvenile and homosexual

FOS » 23 Feb 2023, 5:04 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2023, 5:04 pm

Martists also often think that marx would have some serious problem with bigotry or racism and this is why he opposed nationalism. 

That is not the case.

indeed marx himself was extremely bigoted. He was rather infamous for using racial slurs as a way to critique his opponents etc. And he had no interest in trying to utilize the resentment of black people (members of what marxists call the 'lumpenproletariat') because he felt they were too dim witted to actually be useful or to properly understand the revolutionary idea of Marxism. 

What marx WOULD say, however, is that the bourgoise often use nationalism to divide workers against each other in a sort of divide and conquer tactic. And since he regarded wealth distribution to be the only thing that matters, he felt nationalism was a fake identity (something I regard as rather absurd. What could possibly be more authentic to your identity than your ancestors, your blood, your actual DNA?). Fascists would agree that oligarchs will use nationalism to divide people...but the reason they do it is because it works...because a racial and ethnic identity is so important. So the only solution would be to give the various ethnic groups a distinct space of their own...so that you cannot pit them against eachother outside of warfare between countries.

Here's the deal.  I don't need any socialist, marxist, communist, Democrat or Fascist telling me what I can do, how much wealth I can have, where I can live, how much land I can have, how big my heated pool can be or what size my wife's tits must be.  ALL OF YOU can go F-off and die, and keep your grubby hands off of what my hard work built for me and my family.
 
 

Skans » 23 Feb 2023, 5:10 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2023, 5:10 pm

Here's the deal.  I don't need any socialist, marxist, communist, Democrat or Fascist telling me what I can do, how much wealth I can have, where I can live, how much land I can have, how big my heated pool can be or what size my wife's tits must be.  ALL OF YOU can go F-off and die, and keep your grubby hands off of what my hard work built for me and my family.

Lol...you don't want people telling you what you can do? Well surely you would prefer to live in a society where murder and theft is illegal...else all your hard work will go down the drain quite quickly. 

Fascists were quite haply eith the idea of people acquiring wealth via work. That was basically what they were attempting to create in their economy.

But in order to foster that environment...you are going to have to tell some people what they are not allowed to do.. for example, a fascist would not allow a person to just enslave you.. which would result in all your hard work going to nothing.

and you COULD have been enslaved if there were not some state apparatus with the loyalty of armed police asserting that it is not legal to enslave you.

FOS » 23 Feb 2023, 5:19 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2023, 5:19 pm

Lol...you don't want people telling you what you can do? Well surely you would prefer to live in a society where murder and theft is illegal...else all your hard work will go down the drain quite quickly.

I would be fine leaving the policing and punishing of illegal activity to individual citizens.   I am perfectly capable of managing my own affairs, as well as anyone who tries to interfere with me and my family.

Fascists were quite haply eith the idea of people acquiring wealth via work. That was basically what they were attempting to create in their economy.

The name "fascist" really means nothing to me.  What I've worked for is mine.  What I give or devise to my family is theirs.  What I use of my own to invest and make profit on is mine.  I don't have any problem paying some minimal tax for things we all need like national defense, but that's about it.

But in order to foster that environment...you are going to have to tell some people what they are not allowed to do.. for example, a fascist would not allow a person to just enslave you.. which would result in all your hard work going to nothing.

I would be far more concerned about the "fascist" enslaving me than desperate marauders enslaving me. History has proven my fears to be well founded.  Presently, I fear enslavement from the bureaucratic dictatorship in which we now live.

Oh, and as far as enslavement is concerned, it's coming.  In fact, it's right around the corner.  It will not matter what kind of "government" people have.  Whatever form of government, they (the elites in charge) will be using highly addictive, tailored and effective drugs  to control everyone they possibly can.  The technology is almost there. Sloppy, stupid people already embrace it by the millions. Those youth who identify as "nazis", "fascists" or "communists" - they will be the first to welcome their own chemical enslavement.  It's just a short matter of time until governments figure out how they can deploy it to their favor. 

Actually, China is already waging war against America with addictive chemicals.  They are monitoring its effectiveness, and they will only improve and get better at it.  Our own government has been experimenting, refining and improving the ability to control its population through addictive chemicals.  You don't really believe our tax dollars have neglected the study and research of such things, do you?  That this has all been left to the genius and ingenuity of profiteering narco-terrorists?

 
 
 

(((((ZERO HITLERTARDS/TRUMPTARDS UNDERSTAND THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF THE MONEY FOR WHICH THEY SUCK    CACK, YOU ISM  JISM-SPEWING DUMMY))))))     

...p.s. ...sorry about the heavy font... i'm testing ways to offset some of you republicrat-puppet-sucking monetary ignoramuses when you use the minimize feature like widdle    cwybabies after i've exposed another lame, dull person who spends all their  time engaged in ism   jism, 'important'    insights about puppet$/puppetry, tranny bathroom policy, etceterot ad nau$eam....     
 

FOS » 23 Feb 2023, 5:19 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2023, 5:19 pm

Well surely you would prefer to live in a society where murder and theft is illegal...else all your hard work will go down the drain quite quickly.

   

SIEG HEIL, YOU GD FOOL!!! [and monetary ignoramus]     

Skans » 24 Feb 2023, 8:43 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 8:43 am

I would be fine leaving the policing and punishing of illegal activity to individual citizens.   I am perfectly capable of managing my own affairs, as well as anyone who tries to interfere with me and my family.

The name "fascist" really means nothing to me.  What I've worked for is mine.  What I give or devise to my family is theirs.  What I use of my own to invest and make profit on is mine.  I don't have any problem paying some minimal tax for things we all need like national defense, but that's about it.

I would be far more concerned about the "fascist" enslaving me than desperate marauders enslaving me. History has proven my fears to be well founded.  Presently, I fear enslavement from the bureaucratic dictatorship in which we now live.

Oh, and as far as enslavement is concerned, it's coming.  In fact, it's right around the corner.  It will not matter what kind of "government" people have.  Whatever form of government, they (the elites in charge) will be using highly addictive, tailored and effective drugs  to control everyone they possibly can.  The technology is almost there. Sloppy, stupid people already embrace it by the millions. Those youth who identify as "nazis", "fascists" or "communists" - they will be the first to welcome their own chemical enslavement.  It's just a short matter of time until governments figure out how they can deploy it to their favor. 

Actually, China is already waging war against America with addictive chemicals.  They are monitoring its effectiveness, and they will only improve and get better at it.  Our own government has been experimenting, refining and improving the ability to control its population through addictive chemicals.  You don't really believe our tax dollars have neglected the study and research of such things, do you?  That this has all been left to the genius and ingenuity of profiteering narco-terrorists?

 

So you would like to have someone tell those bureaucratic dictators what to do? That is fascism 

FOS » 24 Feb 2023, 9:41 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 9:41 am

So you would like to have someone tell those bureaucratic dictators what to do? That is fascism

 
...this ^^^ ism   jism-spewing monetary ignoramus STILL hasn't figured out that there are as many definitions/understandings of 'fascism' as there are ism   jism spewers... wordle...     
 
 

peepee » 24 Feb 2023, 9:13 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 9:13 am

(((((ZERO HITLERTARDS/TRUMPTARDS UNDERSTAND THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF THE MONEY FOR WHICH THEY SUCK    CACK, YOU ISM  JISM-SPEWING DUMMY))))))     

...p.s. ...sorry about the heavy font... i'm testing ways to offset some of you republicrat-puppet-sucking monetary ignoramuses when you use the minimize feature like widdle    cwybabies after i've exposed another lame, dull person who spends all their  time engaged in ism   jism, 'important'    insights about puppet$/puppetry, tranny bathroom policy, etceterot ad nau$eam....   

We have discussed your pet grievance before, fool.and it was demonstrated that you have no solution. I have a solution. 

FOS » 24 Feb 2023, 9:50 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 9:50 am

We have discussed your pet grievance before, fool.and it was demonstrated that you have no solution. I have a solution.

Texas is seeking peace in the Ukraine War.
What is your solution ?

FOS » 23 Feb 2023, 4:47 pm » wrote: ↑

23 Feb 2023, 4:47 pm

This is a thing I have noticed when arguing recently with people who fancied themselves Marxists and scholars of marxist theory. Although I usually try to educate people on what fascism is all about...because I am more well read of fascism...I have read enough marx to get the gist of it...and the more Marxists talk the less I believe they have read any of it. 

First of all...the 'mainstream definition' (which would be sonething like 'communism is when the means are production are owned by the workers rather than private entities') is quite lame. In fact...this sounds like a definition that someone biased to be pro capitalist would make up. By itself it is rather incoherent and meaningless and also a bit absurd. Obviously you cannot magically transform a massive number of poorly educated laborers into the elite class. That simply cannot be done and the attempt would fail. And it also makes communist countries appear quite hypocritical since obviously in practice it is not the workers who have any power but rather the members of the Communist party. And anyway what is the actual difference between entities labeled as 'worker'..'private'...and state'? Workers themselves are if anything more 'private' than the state is.. and the various examples a Capitalist can give of workers 'bootstrapping' and becoming themselves members of the monied elite after a few decades of earnest work should indicate that workers have more opportunity in a Capitalist system than they would in a system where there is state control over the economy.

"Obviously you cannot magically transform a massive number of poorly educated laborers into the elite class. That simply cannot be done and the attempt would fail."

  Conspirator plans to remove an existing monarchy and replace with a cloaked control freak monarchy that tends to shun any traditional religious thought. Making money is right, losing money is wrong, make trouble-chaos, acquire property at low or no cost, stop making trouble and sell property at higher cost.

Taipan » 24 Feb 2023, 9:52 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 9:52 am

Texas is seeking peace in the Ukraine War.
What is your solution ?

The solution would be Ukraine surrenders and zelensky is removed from power (and executed, ideally...for provoking a world war)

FOS » 24 Feb 2023, 9:50 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 9:50 am

We have discussed your pet grievance before, fool.and it was demonstrated that you have no solution. I have a solution.

...'solutions' are for math problems... 'proposals' are for people problems...and i have offered many proposals as to 'the money'... none that a lame, brain-laundered monetary ignoramus such as yourself could/can comprehend... wordle...

...as to your hitlertarded/trumptarded 'solutions'.....              
 
 

FOS » 24 Feb 2023, 10:14 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 10:14 am

The solution would be Ukraine surrenders and zelensky is removed from power (and executed, ideally...for provoking a world war)

Sir,
Russia is hemorrhaging money, manpower, equipment, &...respect on the world stage.
Communist Aggression against a friendly neighbor cannot be tolerated.
War is very, very, expensive for all parties concerned.

1.  Vlad, The Great, invaded Ukraine.........unnecessarily.
2.  Over 100,000 dead in Ukraine.......unnecessary.
3.  Over 100,00 dead Russian soldiers........unnecessary.
4.  50% of Russian tanks have been destroyed.
5.  Iran, North Korea, & China are sending in ammo, fuel, food, & helicopter parts to Moscow.
6.  Russia is hemorrhaging blood.........big time.
7.  8 million Ukraine refugee families have fled into Europe.
8.  1,000,000 Russians have fled Russia.       They are now in exile.     They oppose Vlad.

Texas is seeking an immediate Truce.    We seek World Peace.    Starting with Ukraine
& Russia.     Let's sit down & talk things out.    Let's find a "Win-Win"deal that
both parties can live with.
 

FOS » 24 Feb 2023, 9:41 am » wrote: ↑

24 Feb 2023, 9:41 am

So you would like to have someone tell those bureaucratic dictators what to do? That is fascism

No.  I would like to eliminate 95% of them.