Liberal Forum

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2023, 9:51 am » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 9:51 am

So 20 acres of panels costs $5million and at $156,000/year will yield a "profit" after 32 years.
This assumes a maintenance cost of $0 for 3+ decades.

And it assumes ni hail.

michaelf » 30 Jun 2023, 2:23 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 2:23 pm

And it assumes ni hail.

There were solar panels for sale when I was a kid, fifty years ago.

Hail is a well known risk for solar panels.  The panels are built to withstand just so large of hailstones, no more.  

That little 20 acre solar farm sits in an area surrounded by homes with shingled roofs, and there’s probably a century of insurance company data about the risk of shingled roofs in that insurance market.

Every solar panel is Underwriter’s Laboratory listed:

 ——All solar panel manufacturers must submit their solar modules for testing to get a UL listing. The UL requirements include tests to prove that the solar panels can withstand hail to a certain extent.The first solar panel hail test is a standard impact test. A 2-inch solid steel sphere drops from a height of 51 inches. The energy from this impact is equivalent to a 1-3/8 inch diameter hailstone hitting the solar panel at terminal velocity.
 For the second solar panel hail test, a pneumatic cannon fires 25 millimeter (almost 1-inch) ice balls directly onto the solar panel at 52 miles per hour. The ice balls strike the solar panel in at least ten different locations. Then, the solar panel undergoes a test to ensure 95% or better energy production with no visible damage and no water leaks.

——

That was a severe storm, that exceeded UL standards.

The price of the insurance is all baked into the project.

Greenpunk Karma!

Al Gorp says it's all global warming's fault. Those hailzez!

Bruce » 30 Jun 2023, 1:35 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 1:35 pm

The advantage of new generation Natgas turbine plants is you don’t need to build up a big head of steam like traditional coal plants.  There are no boilers, no steam.

—-

GE’s F-class and H-class products can be configured in 400 megawatt and larger sizes, start in fifteen minutes, change load quickly, and back down economically. Alstom’s GT 24, 26, and 13 class turbines are similarly capable in capacity, ramp rate, efficiency, and cost.
—-

Of course with solar and wind, there is instant online power and they are profitable all the way down to zero electric rates once online.

Natgas costs maybe four cents a kilowatt hour just for the gas.

After peak load times, when electric prices fall below four cents, they get shut down.

Uh, really now. "Immediate" generation"" Hardly.

https://www.ipieca.org/site/assets/file ... ure11.webp

A COMBINED CYCLE, which GE's is, still uses STEAM to generate the FULL OUTPUT of the plant. Otherwise, you are only able to offer 1/2 the power needed to keep the grid up. And THAT can and does cause brown outs and other issues that destroy electrical components. You know, like BURNED OUT MOTORS, COMPRESSORS, TV's, etc.

Beekeeper » 30 Jun 2023, 4:12 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 4:12 pm

Uh, really now. "Immediate" generation"" Hardly.

https://www.ipieca.org/site/assets/file ... ure11.webp

A COMBINED CYCLE, which GE's is, still uses STEAM to generate the FULL OUTPUT of the plant. Otherwise, you are only able to offer 1/2 the power needed to keep the grid up. And THAT can and does cause brown outs and other issues that destroy electrical components. You know, like BURNED OUT MOTORS, COMPRESSORS, TV's, etc.

Wind and solar aren’t the first choice for “base line” generation.  Nuclear is.  Nuclear plants run wide open for a year or more and get shut down for maintenance.

Coal is also good for base line power.  They take a long time to spool up, but run so long as you throw coal into them, until they too have to be shut down for maintenance.

But compare coal to gas. Gas plants operate by switching a valve and gas comes in through a pipeline. There’s no dirty black coal to fool with, lower maintenance, no do gooders mad at you, no lawsuits, and since the cost of fuel is about the same coal is done for.

—-The United States is rapidly approaching a milestone in the electricity sector’s energy transition: By the end of 2026, it will have closed half of its coal generation capacity, which peaked in 2011. This is now the earliest date for this milestone since IEEFA began closely tracking coal-plant retirements, and it has moved up despite pandemic-induced supply disruptions that have led to delays in the completion of new generation resources and significant price volatility for gas, both of which contributed to some shifting dates for plant closures. By another measure—actual electricity generation—the U.S. has cut coal use even faster, producing less than 50% of coal’s 2011 power level in both 2020 and 2022. 
 By the end of 2026, based on current announcements from utilities, coal capacity will fall to 159 gigawatts (GW), down from 318GW in 2011. It is set to fall to just 116GW by 2030. And coal generation may continue to fall faster, as aging units face higher operation and maintenance costs, and utilities increasingly favor the responsiveness of gas generation and battery storage to complement the variable output from solar and wind, both of which continue to be built at a rapid clip.Together, these milestones portend an ongoing and deep restructuring of the U.S. coal industry as demand for the fuel continues to drop quickly. It is likely to result in significant mine closures, layoffs, and falling tax and royalty payments in coal-producing states. 
—-

In only the last decade or so, solar and wind have become the cheapest way to add new capacity as old coal and combined gas plants retire.

Just like coal and gas, both solar and wind have been around all my life.  But costs for solar and wind have fallen by nearly unimaginable orders of magnitude while gas and coal plants aren’t getting any cheaper.

But the grid will always need a source of energy that is dead, 100%, always reliable day and night, and that’s gas, for now.  I think it should include nuclear, but I’m not in  charge.

But once the new grid is completed, no power company will burn a thimble of gas unless it’s required to meet demand.

The do gooders celebrate saving the planet.

I celebrate having a 100% domestic electric source that’s cheaper than today.



 

Bruce » 30 Jun 2023, 12:39 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 12:39 pm

There is no reality more apparent than a black out or brown out.

The lights either come on or they don’t.

And also reality is expressed in the size of electric bills.

Cheap natural gas will eventually kill coal.  And economics and not environmentalism is why.

I doubt there’s single residential coal furnace left in America, all replaced by gas or electric.

The only reason to generate power with coal is cost.  And since Natgas competes on cost coal will die.

So why not generate all power with Natgas?  It’s possible.

The reason not to only use gas, is once that solar or wind farm gets built, you can shut down the gas turbine and save the gas for later, while the solar and wind plants have a zero fuel cost.

The electric customer isn’t going to boycott the service because his power comes from woke sources.

He’ll bitch, whine, complain and moan about something else.

Oh Caitlyn Syllables, your real characteristics are showing your character career ignoring now is eternity is over, and you won't accept it Bruce.

Realities are evolving that has happened or happening. Actual evolving isn't included in any reality comparing past and current events pretending they have exceeded series parallel time displaced here now.

Go ahead and try to escape that with traditional space time relativity theories.

Nostradamus'omh » 30 Jun 2023, 4:58 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 4:58 pm

Realities are evolving that has happened or happening. Actual evolving isn't included in any reality comparing past and current events pretending they have exceeded series parallel time displaced here now.

Go ahead and try to escape that with traditional space time relativity theories.

It’s hotter than hell in Texas, right this minute!

It’s too late to add to the grid, and Texas won’t allow utilities to buy power from other states.

But so far, Texas is meeting demand:

—-June 30 (Reuters) - The Texas power grid comfortably met record demand during this week's heat wave with abundant power supply from wind and solar plants, data from the grid operator showed.
 The Texas grid is a focus in the United States whenever it is tested by extreme weather after a catastrophic failure in February 2021 during freezing temperatures left millions of Texans without power, water and heat for days during a deadly storm.
 Texas has limited connection to grids in other states, so is unable to meet spikes in demand with imported power.
This week, grid operator the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) had little trouble meeting demand even as consumption for air conditioning rose temperatures rose as high as 102 degrees Fahrenheit (38.9 degrees Celsius) in the Fort Worth/Dallas area, according to the U.S. National Weather Service.—-

Texas is number one in solar and number two in wind generation.

There’s actually less wind during the heat wave than normal, but the sun shines enough to meet the extra demand.

Think of all those Texans boycotting Bush Light and afraid of swarms of immigrants, groomers, and pedophiles, and other such things that go bump in the night, blissfully unaware of all those solar and wind farms keeping them cool.

 

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2023, 9:51 am » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 9:51 am

So 20 acres of panels costs $5million and at $156,000/year will yield a "profit" after 32 years.
This assumes a maintenance cost of $0 for 3+ decades.

Math is racist. 
 

Neo » 30 Jun 2023, 5:35 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 5:35 pm

Math is racist.

Of course it is.
That's why per capita murders among the black population run on the high side.

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2023, 5:57 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 5:57 pm

Of course it is.
That's why per capita murders among the black population run on the high side.

Same reason Italian American murders were on the high side in the 1940s through the 1980s. A violent subculture of scofflaws infected their culture. Pop culture didn't energize and celebrate the mafia types nearly as aggressively as rap music has spread the gangsta disease to entire communities. 
 

Bruce » 30 Jun 2023, 5:23 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 5:23 pm

It’s hotter than hell in Texas, right this minute!

It’s too late to add to the grid, and Texas won’t allow utilities to buy power from other states.

But so far, Texas is meeting demand:

—-June 30 (Reuters) - The Texas power grid comfortably met record demand during this week's heat wave with abundant power supply from wind and solar plants, data from the grid operator showed.
 The Texas grid is a focus in the United States whenever it is tested by extreme weather after a catastrophic failure in February 2021 during freezing temperatures left millions of Texans without power, water and heat for days during a deadly storm.
 Texas has limited connection to grids in other states, so is unable to meet spikes in demand with imported power.
This week, grid operator the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) had little trouble meeting demand even as consumption for air conditioning rose temperatures rose as high as 102 degrees Fahrenheit (38.9 degrees Celsius) in the Fort Worth/Dallas area, according to the U.S. National Weather Service.—-

Texas is number one in solar and number two in wind generation.

There’s actually less wind during the heat wave than normal, but the sun shines enough to meet the extra demand.

Think of all those Texans boycotting Bush Light and afraid of swarms of immigrants, groomers, and pedophiles, and other such things that go bump in the night, blissfully unaware of all those solar and wind farms keeping them cool.:)

 

What is the specific temperature in Hell right now? F. or C. Yes, I do realize it is a common expression, a metaphor, an exaggeration of real time. So is every reality an exaggeration of actual evolving now?

yes they are.

Neo » 30 Jun 2023, 6:23 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 6:23 pm

Same reason Italian American murders were on the high side in the 1940s through the 1980s. A violent subculture of scofflaws infected their culture. Pop culture didn't energize and celebrate the mafia types nearly as aggressively as rap music has spread the gangsta disease to entire communities.

I don't know about that mafia thing but the other is certainly apparent.

I continue to have no respect for anyone with tattoos. Probably never will.
That has spread throughout the populace as if it means something.
It doesn't.
That's because most people can't even say something meaningful much less find a quip that is worthy of a lifetime.

Also, seeing rap crap pervade the countryside as if it's meaningful is about the same. It isn't.
Bad *** ink and bad *** noise is all just awful. People that embrace that **** are awful.

I used to give people a chance first and let them act like an asshole before I thought they were that.
Not so much anymore. Tattoo showing? Asshole until you prove otherwise.
Listening to really **** rhymes with a beat? Asshole.

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2023, 10:22 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 10:22 pm

I don't know about that mafia thing but the other is certainly apparent.

I continue to have no respect for anyone with tattoos. Probably never will.
That has spread throughout the populace as if it means something.
It doesn't.
That's because most people can't even say something meaningful much less find a quip that is worthy of a lifetime.

Also, seeing rap crap pervade the countryside as if it's meaningful is about the same. It isn't.
Bad *** ink and bad *** noise is all just awful. People that embrace that **** are awful.

I used to give people a chance first and let them act like an asshole before I thought they were that.
Not so much anymore. Tattoo showing? Asshole until you prove otherwise.
Listening to really **** rhymes with a beat? Asshole.

Ultimately few things in life have real meaning. Tattoos being certainly on the completely trivial aspects. 
 

Xavier_Onassis » 30 Jun 2023, 9:00 am » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 9:00 am

Coal mines often have explosions and catch fire. There is one one in PA that has been burning underground for forty years.  And Oil refineries BLOW UP as well. And after they blow up, they are on fire and the fire must be extinguished.

I am pretty sure repairing a solar array will take less time and pollute less than a that huge refinery explosion they had near Houston a years or so ago.

There is very little that humans can create that cannot be destroyed by weather, hurricanes, tornadoes, sunamis, volcanoes and earthquakes.

How sure is "pretty" sure, Petunia?

I'm thinking, not sure AT ALL.

Dumb people like you don't stop to consider the bombs dropped and the ecological costs of mining the rare earth minerals - and you don't even want your media to TALK about the child slaves that are used to get some of the most toxic ingredients in your green chimera.
 
Solar arrays are an ecological disaster - but nothing compared to those wind farms you morons have voted for. 

Neo » 30 Jun 2023, 10:59 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 10:59 pm

Ultimately few things in life have real meaning. Tattoos being certainly on the completely trivial aspects.

Tattoo removal.
That there even IS such a thing at all means something.  

Van Gogh wished there was an Ear Reattaching Service, I'll bet.
Intentionally defacing/maiming yourself only means you're sheep-like or desperate about something dumb.
...and then have to "defend" it by continuing forever to pretend it was the right thing to do.
 

Cannonpointer » 30 Jun 2023, 11:16 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 11:16 pm

How sure is "pretty" sure, Petunia?

I'm thinking, not sure AT ALL.

Dumb people like you don't stop to consider the bombs dropped and the ecological costs of mining the rare earth minerals - and you don't even want your media to TALK about the child slaves that are used to get some of the most toxic ingredients in your green chimera.
 
Solar arrays are an ecological disaster - but nothing compared to those wind farms you morons have voted for.

Now you've gone and done it. You've upset the children with FACTS they don't want you to talk about.

After all, the LWNJs are more than skilled in the fine art of producing things with SLAVE LABOR.

Neo » 30 Jun 2023, 10:59 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 10:59 pm

Ultimately few things in life have real meaning. Tattoos being certainly on the completely trivial aspects. 
 

Tattoes are branding ancestors to an ideology without scorching the hide with a branding iron.

michaelf » 30 Jun 2023, 2:23 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 2:23 pm

And it assumes ni hail.

all hale humanity for perfectly corrupting every ancestor occupying time now. Nobody wants to find out how hard it is to remain honest in a population demanding everyone ignore how evolving is so specific at timing each person alive apart now.

Xavier_Onassis » 30 Jun 2023, 9:00 am » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2023, 9:00 am

Coal mines often have explosions and catch fire. There is one one in PA that has been burning underground for forty years.  And Oil refineries BLOW UP as well. And after they blow up, they are on fire and the fire must be extinguished.

I am pretty sure repairing a solar array will take less time and pollute less than a that huge refinery explosion they had near Houston a years or so ago.

There is very little that humans can create that cannot be destroyed by weather, hurricanes, tornadoes, sunamis, volcanoes and earthquakes.
 

even wildly concocted global warming!
 

sunburn » 01 Jul 2023, 7:36 pm » wrote: ↑

01 Jul 2023, 7:36 pm

even wildly concocted global warming!

I don’t believe in man made climate change.

But it’s not some made up hoax.  It’s by far mainstream majority opinion today:

—-

• A majority of Americans, 71%, believe that climate change is occurring and among those who believe climate change is happening, a majority say that it is caused either entirely or mostly by human activity.
• Of those who say climate change is happening, 70% say it is necessary for individuals to make lifestyle changes to combat climate change. 

Between the lines: Americans are less concerned about the effects climate change may have on them personally than they are worried about the impact it will have on future generations, coastal communities and low-income people. 

• 64% of Americans say they are "extremely" or "very" concerned about the effects of climate change on future generations. 
• 52% of Americans say they are concerned about the effects of climate change on coastal communities, while 47% share the same concern for low-income people. 
• 35% say they are "extremely" or "very" concerned about the effect of climate change on them personally.

—-

We live in a nation with majority rule, and I’m sucking hind teat on this issue.