Liberal Forum

walkingstick » 26 Aug 2023, 12:45 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 12:45 am

as a president, president trump need to do discovery on the georgia voting system. this ment asking questions. and testing honesty. how can you charge a president from doing his job?

Not his job. He lost over 60 cases in court. That’s it that’s all. After that he needed to concede, dust himself off and waited until 2024. 


 

When the 14th Amendment was adopted former United States Vice President John Breckenridge was still living.

—
John Cabell Breckinridge (January 16, 1821 – May 17, 1875) was an American lawyer, politician, and soldier. He represented Kentucky in both houses of Congress and became the 14th and youngest-ever vice president of the United States. Serving from 1857 to 1861, he took office at the age of 36. He was a member of the Democratic Party, and ran for president in 1860 as a Southern Democrat. He served in the U.S. Senate during the outbreak of the American Civil War, but was expelled after joining the Confederate Army. He was appointed Confederate Secretary of War in 1865.

—-

Breckenridge certified Lincoln’s electoral college victory, in 1861.

The 14th applies to Donald Trump without a shadow of doubt.

But who has legal standing to raise it?
 

The debt ceiling is a mystery until we know how much has been spent. Variables surrounding how much will be spent is the unknown equation. What variables will arise in a spending cycle cannot be known. Kevin McCarthy has no clue ===== he is a spender like all the others.

Let's cut preferential tax cuts for the upper 1% = we cannot afford the revenue loss

Lets cut preferential tax dollar subsides to corporations = we cannot afford this revenue loss

Let's close 600 of 1000 offshore military establishments because this is unaffordable imperialism and requires a tremendous amount of tax dollar revenue. No other government in the world comes close to even 400 military establishments or even 200.

Let's cut bailouts of any financial institution for any reason = mismanagement is not eligible for my tax dollars.

Let's cut annual raises for elected officials UNLESS they show WHY they deserve such. Let's reduce their travel expenses by 61%. How can they perform their duties when they are absent from work?

golfboy » 25 Aug 2023, 10:40 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Aug 2023, 10:40 pm

Please tell me why Trump has been impeached twice, and indicted 4 times, and no one has alleged he led an insurrection?
Bueller?

^^^proof positive that golfbaby didn’t read the articles of impeachment.

golfboy » 25 Aug 2023, 10:40 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Aug 2023, 10:40 pm

Please tell me why Trump has been impeached twice, and indicted 4 times, and no one has alleged he led an insurrection?
Bueller?

Well...cause, um, ah...Hey look, it's a squirrel!      

maineman » 26 Aug 2023, 8:04 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 8:04 am

^^^proof positive that golfbaby didn’t read the articles of impeachment.

Cultists would rather follow blindly. 

Pastafarian » 26 Aug 2023, 8:21 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 8:21 am

Cultists would rather follow blindly.

Looks like you and MaineStain are still enjoying those snipe hunts.     

roadkill » 26 Aug 2023, 8:25 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 8:25 am

Looks like you and MaineStain are still enjoying those snipe hunts.   

Let’s state America’s present problem of the inability of Democrats and Republicans to agree on something so very simple as the Insurrection and Rebellion clause of the 14th Amendment.

We do agree it was passed in 1868, after four years of a great rebellion.

And we do agree it says, if a United States government official had engaged in an insurrection or rebellion it takes 2/3 of Congress to approve them holding any federal office.

 —-
  Expulsion Case of John C. Breckinridge of Kentucky (1861)Issues 
Disloyalty to UnionChronology 
Resolution introduced: Dec. 4, 1861
Senate vote: Dec. 4, 1861Result:  ExpelledBackgroundAmong Kentucky's political leaders none enjoyed a more illustrious national career than John C. Breckinridge, who held the offices of representative, senator, and vice president. In the multi-candidate 1860 presidential race, he ran as the candidate of the Southern Democratic party. Breckinridge was then elected to the U.S. Senate for a term beginning on March 4, 1861, as Abraham Lincoln began his administration and after seven southern states had already seceded.A defender of the South on the Senate floor, Breckinridge personally hoped that secession could be stopped. In August 1861, when it became apparent that the secession movement was a reality, Breckinridge devoted one of his final speeches in the Senate to urging an end to the war. "I would prefer to see these States all reunited upon true constitutional principles. . . . But I infinitely prefer to see a peaceful separation of these States, than to see endless, aimless, devastating war, at the end of which I see the grave of public liberty and of personal freedom," he declared. He then returned to Kentucky, a border state torn by divided loyalties. Although sympathizing with the Confederacy, Breckinridge struggled to preserve peace and keep the state neutral, but in September the Kentucky legislature voted to side with the Union. Learning that he was about to be arrested and imprisoned, the senator hastily departed for Tennessee and soon after appeared in Richmond, the Confederate capital. There, Jefferson Davis appointed him a brigadier general in the Confederate army. Breckinridge, the champion of neutrality between the Union and the Confederacy, had finally been forced to choose.—-

Now since everyone agrees the 14th Amendment applied to the Vice President who verified all the electoral votes that cost him the 1860 election and who declared Abraham Lincoln the winner, what are we arguing over what the framers of the 14th Amendment would say if a President who lost refused to concede and began an unsuccessful insurrection to stay in power?

 

Bruce » 26 Aug 2023, 8:42 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 8:42 am

Let’s state America’s present problem of the inability of Democrats and Republicans to agree on something so very simple as the Insurrection and Rebellion clause of the 14th Amendment.

We do agree it was passed in 1868, after four years of a great rebellion.

And we do agree it says, if a United States government official had engaged in an insurrection or rebellion it takes 2/3 of Congress to approve them holding any federal office.

 —-
  Expulsion Case of John C. Breckinridge of Kentucky (1861)Issues 
Disloyalty to UnionChronology 
Resolution introduced: Dec. 4, 1861
Senate vote: Dec. 4, 1861Result:  ExpelledBackgroundAmong Kentucky's political leaders none enjoyed a more illustrious national career than John C. Breckinridge, who held the offices of representative, senator, and vice president. In the multi-candidate 1860 presidential race, he ran as the candidate of the Southern Democratic party. Breckinridge was then elected to the U.S. Senate for a term beginning on March 4, 1861, as Abraham Lincoln began his administration and after seven southern states had already seceded.A defender of the South on the Senate floor, Breckinridge personally hoped that secession could be stopped. In August 1861, when it became apparent that the secession movement was a reality, Breckinridge devoted one of his final speeches in the Senate to urging an end to the war. "I would prefer to see these States all reunited upon true constitutional principles. . . . But I infinitely prefer to see a peaceful separation of these States, than to see endless, aimless, devastating war, at the end of which I see the grave of public liberty and of personal freedom," he declared. He then returned to Kentucky, a border state torn by divided loyalties. Although sympathizing with the Confederacy, Breckinridge struggled to preserve peace and keep the state neutral, but in September the Kentucky legislature voted to side with the Union. Learning that he was about to be arrested and imprisoned, the senator hastily departed for Tennessee and soon after appeared in Richmond, the Confederate capital. There, Jefferson Davis appointed him a brigadier general in the Confederate army. Breckinridge, the champion of neutrality between the Union and the Confederacy, had finally been forced to choose.—-

Now since everyone agrees the 14th Amendment applied to the Vice President who verified all the electoral votes that cost him the 1860 election and who declared Abraham Lincoln the winner, what are we arguing over what the framers of the 14th Amendment would say if a President who lost refused to concede and began an unsuccessful insurrection to stay in power?

You could have saved time if you knew it was NOT and insurrection.    

roadkill » 26 Aug 2023, 9:04 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 9:04 am

You could have saved time if you knew it was NOT and insurrection.  

There you go, what is an insurrection?

We do agree it did not spark a Great  Rebellion, where seven states formally succeeded.  

She we use Webster?

insurrectionnoun
in·​sur·​rec·​tion ˌin(t)-sə-ˈrek-shən 
Synonyms of insurrection
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

——

Evidence:

Encyclopedia Britannica 

In October 2020, about a month before the general election, Trump tested positive for the virus. As the president underwent medical treatment, Pence assumed a greater role in the reelection campaign. In the November election Biden and Harris were declared the winners, though the Trump-Pence ticket challenged the results, alleging voter fraud. However, no evidence was presented to back these claims, and by early December all states had certified the results. Pence subsequently faced pressure from Trump to block Congress’s certification of the election, which was scheduled to take place on January 6, 2021. That day Pence released a letter in which he stated that he would not try to overturn the results, noting that he lacked the “unilateral authority” to throw out electors, a false claim that the president had repeatedly advanced. Shortly thereafter Congress began the certification process, but it was halted when Trump supporters, who had just attended a rally with the president, stormed the Capitol. Pence was taken to a secure location, and some of the attackers were heard saying that he should be hanged. The siege lasted for several hours, but Pence and Congress eventually reconvened, and Biden’s win was certified.
——

If organizing seven states to send false certificates of Ascertainment to the National Archives and then a mob storming the Capitol when the Vice President refused go along with the revolt isn’t insurrection what is, insurrection?

 And further, can we at least agree Mike Pence is not disqualified.  He refused to count the seven false certificates and only counted the real ones.  Plus he nearly got hung by the insurrectionists for  his refusal, on a gallows set up outside.
 
 

Bruce » 26 Aug 2023, 9:17 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 9:17 am

There you go, what is an insurrection?

We do agree it did not spark a Great  Rebellion, where seven states formally succeeded.  

She we use Webster?

insurrectionnoun
in·​sur·​rec·​tion ˌin(t)-sə-ˈrek-shən 
Synonyms of insurrection
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

——

Evidence:

Encyclopedia Britannica 

In October 2020, about a month before the general election, Trump tested positive for the virus. As the president underwent medical treatment, Pence assumed a greater role in the reelection campaign. In the November election Biden and Harris were declared the winners, though the Trump-Pence ticket challenged the results, alleging voter fraud. However, no evidence was presented to back these claims, and by early December all states had certified the results. Pence subsequently faced pressure from Trump to block Congress’s certification of the election, which was scheduled to take place on January 6, 2021. That day Pence released a letter in which he stated that he would not try to overturn the results, noting that he lacked the “unilateral authority” to throw out electors, a false claim that the president had repeatedly advanced. Shortly thereafter Congress began the certification process, but it was halted when Trump supporters, who had just attended a rally with the president, stormed the Capitol. Pence was taken to a secure location, and some of the attackers were heard saying that he should be hanged. The siege lasted for several hours, but Pence and Congress eventually reconvened, and Biden’s win was certified.
——

If organizing seven states to send false certificates of Ascertainment to the National Archives and then a mob storming the Capitol when the Vice President refused go along with the revolt isn’t insurrection what is, insurrection?

 And further, can we at least agree Mike Pence is not disqualified.  He refused to count the seven false certificates and only counted the real ones.  Plus he nearly got hung by the insurrectionists for  his refusal, on a gallows set up outside.

democrats started and lost the last civil war

Bruce » 26 Aug 2023, 9:17 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 9:17 am

There you go, what is an insurrection?

We do agree it did not spark a Great  Rebellion, where seven states formally succeeded.  

She we use Webster?

insurrectionnoun
in·​sur·​rec·​tion ˌin(t)-sə-ˈrek-shən 
Synonyms of insurrection
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

——

Evidence:

Encyclopedia Britannica 

In October 2020, about a month before the general election, Trump tested positive for the virus. As the president underwent medical treatment, Pence assumed a greater role in the reelection campaign. In the November election Biden and Harris were declared the winners, though the Trump-Pence ticket challenged the results, alleging voter fraud. However, no evidence was presented to back these claims, and by early December all states had certified the results. Pence subsequently faced pressure from Trump to block Congress’s certification of the election, which was scheduled to take place on January 6, 2021. That day Pence released a letter in which he stated that he would not try to overturn the results, noting that he lacked the “unilateral authority” to throw out electors, a false claim that the president had repeatedly advanced. Shortly thereafter Congress began the certification process, but it was halted when Trump supporters, who had just attended a rally with the president, stormed the Capitol. Pence was taken to a secure location, and some of the attackers were heard saying that he should be hanged. The siege lasted for several hours, but Pence and Congress eventually reconvened, and Biden’s win was certified.
——

If organizing seven states to send false certificates of Ascertainment to the National Archives and then a mob storming the Capitol when the Vice President refused go along with the revolt isn’t insurrection what is, insurrection?

 And further, can we at least agree Mike Pence is not disqualified.  He refused to count the seven false certificates and only counted the real ones.  Plus he nearly got hung by the insurrectionists for  his refusal, on a gallows set up outside.

Wrong.

Bruce » 26 Aug 2023, 7:42 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 7:42 am

Excuse me?

The last impeachment was for leading the January 6 insurrection.

So?? Are you saying that a bunch of Democrats seeking retribution is important?? Why was there no conviction in the Senate??

Funny how all of a sudden you use IMPEACHMENT as a political cudgel rather than a process to actually remove a President for Treason, Bribery, and other High crimes and misdemeanors. You know, like the ones YOUR BOY BIDEN as committed and will be TOTALLY IMPEACHED and we can see how many SENATORS on your side vote to acquit a PROVEN TRAITOR to this nation.

And what's so funny about that is that YOU AND YOUR NASTY COMMUNISTS set the bar for using impeachment to PUNISH AND DESTROY your POLITICAL ENEMIES!

I bet voters all over will be watching THAT one to see how many TOTERS OF THE PARTY LINE there are and who they vote AGAINST!!

 
 

Bruce » 26 Aug 2023, 9:17 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 9:17 am

There you go, what is an insurrection?

We do agree it did not spark a Great  Rebellion, where seven states formally succeeded.  

She we use Webster?

insurrectionnoun
in·​sur·​rec·​tion ˌin(t)-sə-ˈrek-shən 
Synonyms of insurrection
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

——

Evidence:

Encyclopedia Britannica 

In October 2020, about a month before the general election, Trump tested positive for the virus. As the president underwent medical treatment, Pence assumed a greater role in the reelection campaign. In the November election Biden and Harris were declared the winners, though the Trump-Pence ticket challenged the results, alleging voter fraud. However, no evidence was presented to back these claims, and by early December all states had certified the results. Pence subsequently faced pressure from Trump to block Congress’s certification of the election, which was scheduled to take place on January 6, 2021. That day Pence released a letter in which he stated that he would not try to overturn the results, noting that he lacked the “unilateral authority” to throw out electors, a false claim that the president had repeatedly advanced. Shortly thereafter Congress began the certification process, but it was halted when Trump supporters, who had just attended a rally with the president, stormed the Capitol. Pence was taken to a secure location, and some of the attackers were heard saying that he should be hanged. The siege lasted for several hours, but Pence and Congress eventually reconvened, and Biden’s win was certified.
——

If organizing seven states to send false certificates of Ascertainment to the National Archives and then a mob storming the Capitol when the Vice President refused go along with the revolt isn’t insurrection what is, insurrection?

 And further, can we at least agree Mike Pence is not disqualified.  He refused to count the seven false certificates and only counted the real ones.  Plus he nearly got hung by the insurrectionists for  his refusal, on a gallows set up outside.

Hate to tell you ****, but your boy Jack never charged Trump with INSURRECTION!!

Which can mean ONLY ONE  THING......

There is ZERO EVIDENCE to support the claim!!

Sucks for you, huh??
 

FJB » 26 Aug 2023, 9:26 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 9:26 am

democrats started and lost the last civil war

Yes they did.  It cost 300,000 dead United States soldiers to put down that rebellion.

Republicans drafted and passed the 14th Amendment.

The 14th amendment has no exception for Trumpists.

And, using the 14th Amendment as it was intended would get a full vote count of members of Congress who could vote to remove the disability.

All  Confederates who served the United States before the Confederacy were pardoned by Congress in 1872

Prior Enforcement

There  is a relatively limited history of Section 3 enforcement, largely because Congress granted amnesty to former Confederates in 1872. However, the existing record establishes that a variety of actors, including state officials and courts, federal prosecutors, and Congress itself, have enforced the disqualification clause. Congress passed the Ku Klux Klan Act (also sometimes referred to as the “Enforcement Act”) shortly after ratifying the 14th Amendment.13 The legislation included a statutory directive to federal district attorneys to petition courts for a writ of quo warranto — a legal action that challenges the right of an official to hold office and allows a court to remove an unauthorized officeholder — to remove any covered official who would be disqualified from holding office under the 14th Amendment.14Federal prosecutors brought several cases under this provision.15Two years after passing the legislation, Congress “removed such disability” by passing the Amnesty Act of 1872, allowing most former Confederates to hold office despite the disqualification clause (and mooting several prosecutions then underway). The Ku Klux Klan Act was later repealed, so the explicit cause of action for district attorneys to enforce the provisions is no longer operative.16However, beyond this federal legislation, Congress also possesses its own internal mechanisms to enforce Section 3 against its members. The Senate and the House of Representatives have both exercised their exclusive constitutional authority to exclude or disqualify individuals by refusing to seat them and citing the disqualification clause.17States have also enforced Section 3 against their officials, both before and after the passage and repeal of the Ku Klux Klan Act. In one early example, county commissioners in North Carolina refused to induct a man who had been elected Sheriff due to his service to the Confederate government in the same position.18 This action was eventually approved by the North Carolina Supreme Court; the United States Supreme Court dismissed the sheriff’s appeal.19 The most recent Section 3 disqualification occurred in September 2022, when a New Mexico court disqualified county commissioner Couy Griffin in a state-law quo warranto lawsuit brought by New Mexico residents.20 Other enforcement actions earlier in 2022 have also yielded important legal precedent, even though they did not result in findings of disqualification.21p

 
 

Neo » 25 Aug 2023, 10:46 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Aug 2023, 10:46 pm

I will never understand the crocodile tears wept by liberals over January 6th. It was an hours long **** show that paled in comparison to any one of the 587 blm love riots that democrats gave vocal and financial support to. I could perhaps understand the outrage if June 6th, July 6th, August 6th, September 6th, and October 6th riots hadn't occurred, but they did.

I started a thread about that. How there were hardly any legal ramifications for all of the riots over the years, but Jan 6th is supposed to go down in history as the worst riot in America. Joke. 

Xavier_Onassis » 25 Aug 2023, 9:54 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Aug 2023, 9:54 pm

The Federalist Papers have nothing to say about the 14th Amendment.
In the same way that Thomas Jefferson has offered no opinion about the new Tesla.

Let me know when you have something other than your weak opinion.....
 

razoo » 26 Aug 2023, 12:50 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 12:50 am

The Federalist is always fake news and right wing fascist activity plus spreads lies ..........

Any examples ....?
besides your completely anti-rightwing and heavily conditioned bias?

 

Bruce » 26 Aug 2023, 10:18 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 10:18 am

Yes they did.  It cost 300,000 dead United States soldiers to put down that rebellion.

Republicans drafted and passed the 14th Amendment.

The 14th amendment has no exception for Trumpists.

And, using the 14th Amendment as it was intended would get a full vote count of members of Congress who could vote to remove the disability.

All  Confederates who served the United States before the Confederacy were pardoned by Congress in 1872

Prior Enforcement

There  is a relatively limited history of Section 3 enforcement, largely because Congress granted amnesty to former Confederates in 1872. However, the existing record establishes that a variety of actors, including state officials and courts, federal prosecutors, and Congress itself, have enforced the disqualification clause. Congress passed the Ku Klux Klan Act (also sometimes referred to as the “Enforcement Act”) shortly after ratifying the 14th Amendment.13 The legislation included a statutory directive to federal district attorneys to petition courts for a writ of quo warranto — a legal action that challenges the right of an official to hold office and allows a court to remove an unauthorized officeholder — to remove any covered official who would be disqualified from holding office under the 14th Amendment.14Federal prosecutors brought several cases under this provision.15Two years after passing the legislation, Congress “removed such disability” by passing the Amnesty Act of 1872, allowing most former Confederates to hold office despite the disqualification clause (and mooting several prosecutions then underway). The Ku Klux Klan Act was later repealed, so the explicit cause of action for district attorneys to enforce the provisions is no longer operative.16However, beyond this federal legislation, Congress also possesses its own internal mechanisms to enforce Section 3 against its members. The Senate and the House of Representatives have both exercised their exclusive constitutional authority to exclude or disqualify individuals by refusing to seat them and citing the disqualification clause.17States have also enforced Section 3 against their officials, both before and after the passage and repeal of the Ku Klux Klan Act. In one early example, county commissioners in North Carolina refused to induct a man who had been elected Sheriff due to his service to the Confederate government in the same position.18 This action was eventually approved by the North Carolina Supreme Court; the United States Supreme Court dismissed the sheriff’s appeal.19 The most recent Section 3 disqualification occurred in September 2022, when a New Mexico court disqualified county commissioner Couy Griffin in a state-law quo warranto lawsuit brought by New Mexico residents.20 Other enforcement actions earlier in 2022 have also yielded important legal precedent, even though they did not result in findings of disqualification.21p

Keep twisting ....

Despite the scenes of the attack on the Capitol and extensive investigations, the American people do not seem to agree that Trump took part in an insurrection or rebellion. Almost half the respondents in a 2022 CBS poll rejected the claim that the events of Jan. 6 were an actual “insurrection” (with the divide tracking partisan lines), and 76 percent viewed it as a “protest gone too far.”


 

Beekeeper » 26 Aug 2023, 9:52 am » wrote: ↑

26 Aug 2023, 9:52 am

So?? Are you saying that a bunch of Democrats seeking retribution is important?? Why was there no conviction in the Senate??

Funny how all of a sudden you use IMPEACHMENT as a political cudgel rather than a process to actually remove a President for Treason, Bribery, and other High crimes and misdemeanors. You know, like the ones YOUR BOY BIDEN as committed and will be TOTALLY IMPEACHED and we can see how many SENATORS on your side vote to acquit a PROVEN TRAITOR to this nation.

And what's so funny about that is that YOU AND YOUR NASTY COMMUNISTS set the bar for using impeachment to PUNISH AND DESTROY your POLITICAL ENEMIES!

I bet voters all over will be watching THAT one to see how many TOTERS OF THE PARTY LINE there are and who they vote AGAINST!!

We have a bad problem in this nation.

On the eve of the Civil War Vice President Breckinridge counted and granted Abraham Lincoln the electoral votes that cost Breckinridge the 1860 election.

Because of Miss Charlotte, my seven grade teacher, I’ve known that since 1971, when I was 13.

She said it was proof the electoral college could be trusted.

I realize I was blessed by the Lord to have been born a half mile South of Bug Tussle, Missouri.  That meant every one of my schoolteachers were as excellent asMiss Charlotte,( except our high school science teacher who was **** one of my classmates who’d been held back a year. )

But if an Ozarks Hillbilly has known what an insurrection was since he was 13 those mother **** at Fox News have no excuses.


If this nation doesn’t stop this, Joe Biden can play the Kamala Harris card, and we might actually get Kamala to join the insurrectionists.

This has to stop, here and now, at Donald Trump.