Liberal Forum

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:21 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:21 am

I base that on your comments.  Every one I have seen is only critical of Israel...never critical of Hamas.  Ever hear the saying "That which you allow, you condone."?

 

I have condemned Hamas multiple times. I have said repeatedly that both sides are scum. You only read what you want. 

BTW...the part I am interested in seeing you prove is that Israel loves doing it.  You know, the second word in your comment.  I would be curious about what, if anything, Hamas had stored under the apartment building.

Well...they certainly don't give a ****.

  Also, there is nothing in international law that states a country cannot kill women and children (or any other civilian). 

This is only true if it's not deliberate. Legally it is a war crime to deliberately kill civilians. In this case, Israel's bombing is raising eyebrows because they are deliberately bombing civilian targets that they "think" may have Hamas members inside. They know full well there are civilians inside with them. In Afghanistan and Iraq, we went door to door to kill the scumbags. We didn't bomb the whole damn village. 

I pretty sure the law is a country must make every effort to minimize those deaths.  If the "enemy" puts their missiles and other munitions under schools, apartments, hospitals, etc. the law would make it impossible to defend yourself.

Israel has not made an effort to minimize civilian deaths. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:22 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:22 am

They haven't had an election since 2007. They ruled them in on 2006. Hamas then did a 180 and told the Palestinians go pound sand with their elections. They had no way of voting them out after they screwed them.

BTW...polls in both 2022 and this year place Palestinian support of either Hamas or Fatah at 69%.
 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:32 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:32 am

Israel has not made an effort to minimize civilian deaths.
 

Is that just your opinion, or should I ask for proof of your assertion?
 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:30 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:30 am

They could leave.  If you stay where you know the "leadership" is doing the things Hamas does on a regular basis, you are giving your tacit support.

Just my opinion.

Leave to where? 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:36 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:36 am

Is that just your opinion, or should I ask for proof of your assertion?

Well you tell me then. They have the resources to go door to door, just like we did, but they are choosing to just level them. Soooooo....you tell me. 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:34 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:34 am

BTW...polls in both 2022 and this year place Palestinian support of either Hamas or Fatah at 69%.

Polls from what source?

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:32 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:32 am

This is only true if it's not deliberate. Legally it is a war crime to deliberately kill civilians. In this case, Israel's bombing is raising eyebrows because they are deliberately bombing civilian targets that they "think" may have Hamas members inside.

 

Are they deliberately bombing those targets to kill civilians, or are they deliberately bombing those targets because their intelligence knows there is a military target under the site.  Since neither of us has access to their intelligence, I don't know the answer.  It sounds like you do.  I am, however, pretty sure Israel didn't put Hamas munitions under a graveyard next to a hospital. Hamas probably did that all by themselves.

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:40 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:40 am

Are they deliberately bombing those targets to kill civilians, or are they deliberately bombing those targets because their intelligence knows there is a military target under the site.  Since neither of us has access to their intelligence, I don't know the answer.  It sounds like you do.  I am, however, pretty sure Israel didn't put Hamas munitions under a graveyard next to a hospital. Hamas probably did that all by themselves.

I agree that neither of us know for certain. However, I will tell you what I know with 100% certainty: 

US used ground troops to go door to door to find the scumbags, they didn't bomb the whole village. 
Israel is not going to door to door, they are turning civilian buildings into parking lots. 

Z09 » 27 Oct 2023, 10:41 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:41 am

A poll awhile back stated Palestinians supported Hamas

Can you produce it so I can examine it? 
 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:39 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:39 am

Polls from what source?

The headline that contains the link is worded slightly differently

https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mel ... y-picture/

I did note this in the story (you need to scroll down a while);

By 70 percent to 28 percent, Palestinians oppose a two-state solution — “the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.”

 An even larger number — 76 percent to 21 percent — oppose a “one state solution …in which the two sides enjoy equal rights.”  

 Given a choice among three options for “ending the occupation and building an independent state,” 21 percent prefer “negotiations,” 22 percent “peaceful popular resistance” and 52 percent select “armed conflict.” 

Damn...be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.
 
 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:37 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:37 am

Leave to where?

Anywhere.  Personally, I think it better to live half way around the world from where you want to live and not risk getting blown up.

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:38 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:38 am

Well you tell me then. They have the resources to go door to door, just like we did, but they are choosing to just level them. Soooooo....you tell me.

Tell me how may civilians (and troops) would be killed with the IDF sending in a large force to do a door to door search, then I can tell you which is the better option.

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:40 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:40 am

Are they deliberately bombing those targets to kill civilians, or are they deliberately bombing those targets because their intelligence knows there is a military target under the site.  Since neither of us has access to their intelligence, I don't know the answer.  It sounds like you do.  I am, however, pretty sure Israel didn't put Hamas munitions under a graveyard next to a hospital. Hamas probably did that all by themselves.

Also, on another observation, there appears to be a difference in attitude between the civilians of Palestine and Israel. Again, I admit that this is just my observation. From what I have seen, through different news outlets and interviews for the past 3 decades, is that Palestinians are generally peaceful people. They don't want to see any Israeli civilian harmed. In contrast, Israelis appear quite apathetic toward Palestinians. They appear indifferent to the plight of Palestinian civilians.   

I have encountered many Jews here. A lot of them. They are not nice people. They are very demanding, entitled, and just down right obnoxious. 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:48 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:48 am

Tell me how may civilians (and troops) would be killed with the IDF sending in a large force to do a door to door search, then I can tell you which is the better option.

How the hell should I know? You are asking a hypothetical. The point is that going door to door targets the scumbags. Bombing the whole damn building ensures that everyone would die. 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:47 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:47 am

Anywhere.  Personally, I think it better to live half way around the world from where you want to live and not risk getting blown up.

And they have the funds to just hop on a **** plane and leave somewhere. 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:45 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:45 am

The headline that contains the link is worded slightly differently

https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mel ... y-picture/

I did note this in the story (you need to scroll down a while);

By 70 percent to 28 percent, Palestinians oppose a two-state solution — “the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.”

 An even larger number — 76 percent to 21 percent — oppose a “one state solution …in which the two sides enjoy equal rights.”  

 Given a choice among three options for “ending the occupation and building an independent state,” 21 percent prefer “negotiations,” 22 percent “peaceful popular resistance” and 52 percent select “armed conflict.” 

Damn...be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.

None of this says anything about their support for Hamas. That's what you claimed. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:51 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:51 am

They appear indifferent to the plight of Palestinian civilians.   

I have encountered many Jews here. A lot of them. They are not nice people. They are very demanding, entitled, and just down right obnoxious.

The indifference might be the result of knowing the majority of Palestinians prefer armed conflict as a resolution rather than a negotiated peace.  But I could be wrong in that assumption.

Let me suggest you find another "circle" to run in.  I have know many Jews for decades, and encountered many others.  To a person, they are all very nice, peaceful and charitable.
 
 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 10:55 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:55 am

None of this says anything about their support for Hamas. That's what you claimed.

Pretty sure I said Hamas or Fatah.  Neither group gets a majority support, but added together their support from the majority of Palestinians.

Z09 » 27 Oct 2023, 10:54 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:54 am

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle ... 34da08fd87

 I wonder what the poll would say now. 

They want independence from Israel (I don't blame them) and they believe Hamas could get it done. Hamas is scum, but this conflict has gone on too long between the two sides. If they think Hamas can secure liberty from Israel, then I understand. 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 10:56 am » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 10:56 am

The indifference might be the result of knowing the majority of Palestinians prefer armed conflict as a resolution rather than a negotiated peace. 

Not true. Only a minority of militant extremists want that. It seems that they all want it because we have heard, for the past 3 decades, about the rockets being fired at Israel. But it's mostly the extremists. 

Let me suggest you find another "circle" to run in.  I have know many Jews for decades, and encountered many others.  To a person, they are all very nice, peaceful and charitable.

I don't need to find another circle. I am looking at Israel's past as a whole and my personal interactions match what I see.