Liberal Forum

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 2:07 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:07 pm

Did 52% of the Afghan people want the elimination of the US?

Probably not. But if the civilians are carrying guns and aimed at Israel, then they are no longer consider civilians. They are considered the enemy. Therefore, they can legally be targeted. Is there evidence of that in this conflict? I have not seen civilians shooting at Isralies. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:11 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:11 pm

Probably not. But if the civilians are carrying guns and aimed at Israel, then they are no longer consider civilians. They are considered the enemy. Therefore, they can legally be targeted. Is there evidence of that in this conflict? I have not seen civilians shooting at Isralies.

Someone doesn't need to be armed with a gun to be a deterrent or a threat.

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 2:13 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:13 pm

Someone doesn't need to be armed with a gun to be a deterrent or a threat.

If they are a deliberate threat toward an opposing soldier in any way, then legally they are no longer considered civilians. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:11 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:11 pm

Probably not. But if the civilians are carrying guns and aimed at Israel, then they are no longer consider civilians. They are considered the enemy. Therefore, they can legally be targeted. Is there evidence of that in this conflict? I have not seen civilians shooting at Isralies.

Then you haven't been watching ANY news.  Hamas does not have a military...therefore everyone shooting at Israelis are civilians.
 
 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:14 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:14 pm

If they are a deliberate threat toward an opposing soldier in any way, then legally they are no longer considered civilians.

So it they don't answer the door...it would be legal to shoot through the door and kill them all?  That could be considered "opposing".

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 2:14 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:14 pm

Then you haven't been watching ANY news.  Hamas does not have an military...therefore everyone shooting at Israelis are civilians.

You don't have to have a formal or professional military to get together and start shooting people. Hamas has guns and rockets. If civilians are taking part in that, then like I said already, they are no longer considered civilians. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:17 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:17 pm

You don't have to have a formal or professional military to get together and start shooting people. Hamas has guns and rockets. If civilians are taking part in that, then like I said already, they are no longer considered civilians.

But if you aren't in a formal or professional military you are, by definition, a civilian.
 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 2:18 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:18 pm

But if you aren't in a formal or professional military you are, by definition, a civilian.

In our country and other developed countries, yes. In that **** hole? They have a formal group of militants. Not a military, but within the context of their society, they are also not civilians. They hold political offices. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 1:45 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 1:45 pm

When did I ever claim that there couldn't be civilian deaths? I said their deaths should never be deliberate.

Obviously the second. Clearly this doesn't apply to Israel/Hamas. You can't honestly think that bombing buildings full of civilians would result in less civilian casualties than troops going door to door. Yes, it's unsafe for military men. We did it though. Our troops went on the ground, kicked in doors, and shot the scum. Some civilians died, but compared to bombing the whole place? You can't even compare the two.

A long time ago, in 1981, in Beirut, Yasser Arafat had his offices on the ninth floor (as I can recall) of a twelve or thirteen-story building at the northern end of the Shatila refugee camp, right across the street from the Chamoun Sports Stadium.  The lower three floors were comprised of a PLO health clinic and a daycare center for Palestinian kids.  The UN Liaison Office was in an office building on the other side of the stadium and Arafat would come over quite often to talk with the French Colonel who was the head of the office and would use him as a conduit to get cables directly to Kurt Waldheim in New York.  One day (luckily for Arafat because he was out of his building at the time) Israel flew one single smart bomb into a window on the ninth floor of that building.  It wiped out the PLO offices and killed a dozen PLO officials, but it missed the Chairman.  It also didn't cause ANY damage to the clinic and daycare six or so floors beneath it.  If Israel had weapons systems that sophisticated over 40 years ago, do you really think that they would need to "bomb the whole place" in order to cripple the Hamas command and control structure?

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:20 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:20 pm

In our country and other developed countries, yes. In that **** hole? They have a formal group of militants. Not a military, but within the context of their society, they are also not civilians. They hold political offices.

You can call them militants, terrorist, extremist, combatant, hot dogs, elephants or anything else you want to call them.  Since there is no country named Palestine, they are all civilians.

maineman » 27 Oct 2023, 2:24 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:24 pm

A long time ago, in 1981, in Beirut, Yasser Arafat had his offices on the ninth floor (as I can recall) of a twelve or thirteen-story building at the northern end of the Shatila refugee camp, right across the street from the Chamoun Sports Stadium.  The lower three floors were comprised of a PLO health clinic and a daycare center for Palestinian kids.  The UN Liaison Office was in an office building on the other side of the stadium and Arafat would come over quite often to talk with the French Colonel who was the head of the office and would use him as a conduit to get cables directly to Kurt Waldheim in New York.  One day (luckily for Arafat because he was out of his building at the time) Israel flew one single smart bomb into a window on the ninth floor of that building.  It wiped out the PLO offices and killed a dozen PLO officials, but it missed the Chairman.  It also didn't cause ANY damage to the clinic and daycare six or so floors beneath it.  If Israel had weapons systems that sophisticated over 40 years ago, do you really think that they would need to "bomb the whole place" in order to cripple the Hamas command and control structure?

Interesting. I didn't know about this. They don't need to. Which brings up my question as to why are they then?

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 2:29 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:29 pm

You can call them militants, terrorist, extremist, combatant, hot dogs, elephants or anything else you want to call them.  Since there is no country named Palestine, they are all civilians.

That's a semantic game. When it comes to defending your own, semantics don't mean a whole lot. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:31 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:31 pm

Interesting. I didn't know about this. They don't need to. Which brings up my question as to why are they then?

I don't think they are. I think they are showing remarkable constraint.

maineman » 27 Oct 2023, 2:32 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:32 pm

I don't think they are. I think they are showing remarkable constraint.

It's already been shown that they have. There have been apartment buildings down streets that have just been completely leveled. The civilian death count is up to 5k or something. 

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:34 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:34 pm

It's already been shown that they have. There have been apartment buildings down streets that have just been completely leveled. The civilian death count is up to 5k or something.

how many of those "civilians" were armed Hamas fighters sheltering in place with their families?
 
 

ConsRule » 27 Oct 2023, 2:29 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:29 pm

You can call them militants, terrorist, extremist, combatant, hot dogs, elephants or anything else you want to call them.  Since there is no country named Palestine, they are all civilians.

I am curious.  Back in 1776, was the continental army all civilians?
 

maineman » 27 Oct 2023, 2:36 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:36 pm

how many of those "civilians" were armed Hamas fighters sheltering in place with their families?

This is the conversation I am having with Consrule at the moment. In Afghanistan and Iraq, the US used to send in ground troops and snipers.  The ground troops would kick down doors and then shoot the scum. Yes, some civilians got the crossfire. However, the civilian casualties were minimized. They didn't bomb the whole village. It took longer and was more dangerous, but the civilian death toll was minimized. It seems like Israel is just saying "ah **** it. Just level the damn place."

Vegas » 27 Oct 2023, 2:41 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:41 pm

This is the conversation I am having with Consrule at the moment. In Afghanistan and Iraq, the US used to send in ground troops and snipers.  The ground troops would kick down doors and then shoot the scum. Yes, some civilians got the crossfire. However, the civilian casualties were minimized. They didn't bomb the whole village. It took longer and was more dangerous, but the civilian death toll was minimized. It seems like Israel is just saying "ah **** it. Just level the damn place."

And my guess is that, after Hamas slaughtered hundreds of unarmed young people at a rock concert to start this whole debacle, Israel might very well not be anywhere near as concerned with collateral damage as they might otherwise have been.
 

maineman » 27 Oct 2023, 2:45 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Oct 2023, 2:45 pm

And my guess is that, after Hamas slaughtered hundreds of unarmed young people at a rock concert to start this whole debacle, Israel might very well not be anywhere near as concerned with collateral damage as they might otherwise have been.

I understand. I certainly believe that Israel has a right to retaliate. I never claimed otherwise. That isn't an excuse. We had over 3k dead Americans lying in the streets of New York on 9/11. We still did what we could to minimize killing civilians who had nothing to do with the attack. 

Seriously.... if Hamas was worried about civilian casualties, they picked a pretty bloody way to show that concern on the evening of October 7th.