Liberal Forum

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 12:49 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 12:49 am

That may be true. It was still obama that assured their death when he armed them, knowing they would use those arms against the Turks - knowing that even if the Kurds behaved, the Turks would still not allow armed anti-Turkish terrorists on their porous border in an area populated primarily by ethnic Kurdish citizens dreaming of separation from Turkey and establishing a Kurdish ethno-state.

The Kurds were not our allies. They were our proxies - and proxies are expendable. They were stateless ragamuffins that were happy to get their hands on some guns and money - and they used those guns and money to annoy Erdogan.

Pray explain WHY the Sunni Kurds would want to attack Sunni ISIS - just explain that much to me, since it is clear you have no idea whose proxy ISIS is - but you at least acknowledge that the Kurds were ours. How did we convince them to focus on fighting Sunni ISIS when the field offered tons of Shia militias to shoot at? Hezbollah were there. The Kurds ignored THEM In favor of attacking ISIS? Why would they do that?

the syrian kurds are non demonational, meaning they can be christian, muslim or jewish, not too many jews I bet but they would allow jews if  jews wanted to join,
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 12:49 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 12:49 am

That may be true. It was still obama that assured their death when he armed them, knowing they would use those arms against the Turks - knowing that even if the Kurds behaved, the Turks would still not allow armed anti-Turkish terrorists on their porous border in an area populated primarily by ethnic Kurdish citizens dreaming of separation from Turkey and establishing a Kurdish ethno-state.

The Kurds were not our allies. They were our proxies - and proxies are expendable. They were stateless ragamuffins that were happy to get their hands on some guns and money - and they used those guns and money to annoy Erdogan.

Pray explain WHY the Sunni Kurds would want to attack Sunni ISIS - just explain that much to me, since it is clear you have no idea whose proxy ISIS is - but you at least acknowledge that the Kurds were ours. How did we convince them to focus on fighting Sunni ISIS when the field offered tons of Shia militias to shoot at? Hezbollah were there. The Kurds ignored THEM In favor of attacking ISIS? Why would they do that?

isis was itself it's own etenity I have not seen any real evidence of any other involvement. they hate women, educating girls. their religion forbids that, they hate religious symbols. the weapons they got were things they found from the iraq war, the syrian kurds hate isis because they believe woman and men are equal and isis was just too vicious in the first place.
 

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 12:59 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 12:59 am

no the syrian kurds had no intention of using weapons on turkey,  they would have defeated isis a lot sooner but turkey kept saying not to give weapons tomthe kurds but the kurds never went to turkey, just stayed in syria, fighting isis with american gi's.

You haven't really addressed the issue. But let's detour BRIEFLY to the side issue. From wiki:

On 6 May 2016, HBDH, an umbrella organization built around the Kurdish PKK, attacked a Gendarmerie General Command base in Giresun Province in northeastern Turkey. According to news reports, a roadside bomb exploded, targeting a Gendarmerie vehicle.[272] HDBH claimed responsibility for the attack on May 8, stating that three gendarmes died in the attack, as well as the Base Commander, who was the intended target.[273] the Joint Command of the HBDH has claimed responsibility for several more attacks in the region, primarily targeting Turkish soldiers or gendarmes. The tactics employed by the alliance are very similar to those used by the PKK. The most notable attack came on 19 July 2016, just 4 days after the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt. HBDH reported that they had killed 11 Turkish riot police in Trabzon Province at 08:30 that morning.[274] The HBDH report is consistent in time and location to an attack reported by Doğan News Agency, in which "unknown assailants" fired on a police checkpoint...

Arms and money are fungible. We were arming and funding terror groups at war with our NATO Ally. Trump stopped that.

Now, back to one of the primary issues. First, whose proxy do you believe ISIS to be? They have to be SOEONE's in order to function. A stateless bunch of jihadis with no money cannot take a piece of ANY nations state. SOMEONE is paying the bills for ISIS. Any idea who, and why?

Bonus question: with Shia within shooting distance, why would the Sunni Kurds choose to ignore them and go after ISIS? On whose behalf would they do that, and why? You have already answered half of that - on the USA's behalf. Of course, I disagree. I say our pretense at going after ISIS was flim flam. But let us say they DID do that. 

Why?

 
 

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 1:03 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:03 am

the syrian kurds are non demonational, meaning they can be christian, muslim or jewish, not too many jews I bet but they would allow jews if  jews wanted to join,

There is no joining. You must be born Kurd to be a Kurd - and 75% are Sunni Muslim. 
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 1:11 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:11 am

You haven't really addressed the issue. But let's detour BRIEFLY to the side issue. From wiki:

On 6 May 2016, HBDH, an umbrella organization built around the Kurdish PKK, attacked a Gendarmerie General Command base in Giresun Province in northeastern Turkey. According to news reports, a roadside bomb exploded, targeting a Gendarmerie vehicle.[272] HDBH claimed responsibility for the attack on May 8, stating that three gendarmes died in the attack, as well as the Base Commander, who was the intended target.[273] the Joint Command of the HBDH has claimed responsibility for several more attacks in the region, primarily targeting Turkish soldiers or gendarmes. The tactics employed by the alliance are very similar to those used by the PKK. The most notable attack came on 19 July 2016, just 4 days after the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt. HBDH reported that they had killed 11 Turkish riot police in Trabzon Province at 08:30 that morning.[274] The HBDH report is consistent in time and location to an attack reported by Doğan News Agency, in which "unknown assailants" fired on a police checkpoint...

Arms and money are fungible. We were arming and funding terror groups at war with our NATO Ally. Trump stopped that.

Now, back to one of the primary issues. First, whose proxy do you believe ISIS to be? They have to be SOEONE's in order to function. A stateless bunch of jihadis with no money cannot take a piece of ANY nations state. SOMEONE is paying the bills for ISIS. Any idea who, and why?

Bonus question: with Shia within shooting distance, why would the Sunni Kurds choose to ignore them and go after ISIS? On whose behalf would they do that, and why? You have already answered half of that - on the USA's behalf. Of course, I disagree. I say our pretense at going after ISIS was flim flam. But let us say they DID do that. 

Why?

the kurds in turkey were pkk. and they did bomb fight turkey. but not the kurds in syria who assad wanted them there to fight isis.

the syrian kurds are not sunni. or hbdb.

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 1:10 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:10 am

isis was itself it's own etenity I have not seen any real evidence of any other involvement.

That is just patenly silly. You are not a silly person. I do not think you have thought this through AT ALL.

They have no state. No arms manufacturing. No intelligence agencies. No banking. No way of making money. SOMEONE is funding them.

Generally speaking, if you cannot name who funds a terrorist group, the country you live in is funding it.

The silly notion that a group can spring out of nowhere with nothing and declare a state against the wishes of EVERY POWER ON EARTH is just preposterous. There HAS to be a different explanation than THAT silliness.

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 1:10 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:10 am

they hate women, educating girls. their religion forbids that, they hate religious symbols. the weapons they got were things they found from the iraq war, the syrian kurds hate isis because they believe woman and men are equal and isis was just too vicious in the first place.

Okay, so the Kurds are egalitarian and ISIS is not. That could certainly be a reason for conflict. Perhaps the ISIS fighters were raping some Kurdish women. Their "caliphate" did in fact border some Kurdish populations.

But you still have not explained how in the holy **** a bunch of yeehaws on a jeehawd manage to stand off the entire world's military with found weaponry. I guess they had a never ending stash of found ammo, too - yeah? Eough to train with, then fight with, for a decade - yeah? That narrative beggars the imagination for words that convey scorn. If you keep it up, you're going to force me to run to www.thesaurus.com.

No, sir. That silliness will not do. SOMEONE helped them. And take notice that they have never once made any moves against Israel. Indeed, they were triaged and resupplied by Israel when wounded during their fight in Syria.

So whose proxy is ISIS?

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 1:14 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:14 am

There is no joining. You must be born Kurd to be a Kurd - and 75% are Sunni Muslim.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What type of Christians are Kurds?
Modernly however, the majority of Kurdish Christians are evangelicals, and evangelical Kurdish churches have been established in Erbil, Selimani, and Duhok in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, and in Hassakeh, Qamishli, Kobani, Amouda, and Afrin (until 2018) in the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria.
 

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 1:24 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:24 am

the kurds in turkey were pkk. and they did bomb fight turkey. but not the kurds in syria who assad wanted them there to fight isis.

the syrian kurds are not sunni. or hbdb.

         

Kurds, like money, are fungible. 

And YES, the Kurds in Syria were at LEAST 75% Sunni. But never mind that - let's say they're all Christians and Zoroastrians and atheists. I don't care - you've already provided a plausible explanation for them hating ISIS. 

What you cannot EVER explain is how a bunch of yahoos can proclaim a caliphate against the wishes of the entire roster of the United Nations, and make it stand for years. That is - AGAIN - just silly. 

Also, arming and funding Kurds just east and south of Turkey is arming and funding Kurds IN Turkey. 

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 1:29 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:29 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What type of Christians are Kurds?
Modernly however, the majority of Kurdish Christians are evangelicals, and evangelical Kurdish churches have been established in Erbil, Selimani, and Duhok in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, and in Hassakeh, Qamishli, Kobani, Amouda, and Afrin (until 2018) in the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria.

So the Kurds are being overtaken by homosexuality, as well. Thanks for that off-topic information.
 
Oh - and not to step over the point: The majority of CHRISTIAN Kurds being evangelical =/= the majority of Kurds being Christian. 

The majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims. 75%, in fact, with the remaining 25% being split up between zoroastrianism, shia islam, Christianity, and a handful of other things. 
 
The fact that the Christian Kurds have built some churches is another extremely interesting diversion. Not surprising, though, since Christians DO tend to build churches.

Just out of idle curiosity - any idea whose proxy ISIS is?

And if no one's, just out of idle curiosity, how the **** did they hold off the world's armies without a state sponsor, using only found weapons and found amunition?
 

https://kurdishpeople.org/christianity/First religious propagation of the Kurds to Christianity in Kurdish terrains is dated to the main Century A.D by Apostle Andrew[1].In the year 338 AD, a Kurdish ruler named Tirdad became Christian. It has been estimated that he was from the Hawraman locale of Kurdistan.[2][3]As per a legeng, some “sun-worshipping” Kurds were converted to Christianity after a Greek priest, cleric and St. Mar Saba (439–532) who achieved to convert them amid the fifth century.[4]CHRISTIANITY AFTER ARAB CONQUESTAs a result of Islamic conquest of Kurdish regions, majority of the Kurds were forced to convert to Islam. The Christians who are “People of the Book” in Islamic Law were not persecuted as long as they paid Islamic Jizya Tax. But nothing could stop the decrease of Kurdish Christian population.
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 1:33 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:33 am

So the Kurds are being overtaken by homosexuality, as well. Thanks for that off-topic information.
 
Oh - and not to step over the point: The majority of CHRISTIAN Kurds being evangelical =/= the majority of Kurds being Christian. 

The majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims. 75%, in fact, with the remaining 25% being split up between zoroastrianism, shia islam, Christianity, and a handful of other things. 
 
The fact that the Christian Kurds have built some churches is another extremely interesting diversion. Not surprising, though, since Christians DO tend to build churches.

Just out of idle curiosity - any idea whose proxy ISIS is?

And if no one's, just out of idle curiosity, how the **** did they hold off the world's armies without a state sponsor, using only found weapons and found amunition?

the syrian kurds have both muslim and christian.

and they all hate isis who are sunni,

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 1:33 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:33 am

So the Kurds are being overtaken by homosexuality, as well. Thanks for that off-topic information.
 
Oh - and not to step over the point: The majority of CHRISTIAN Kurds being evangelical =/= the majority of Kurds being Christian. 

The majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims. 75%, in fact, with the remaining 25% being split up between zoroastrianism, shia islam, Christianity, and a handful of other things. 
 
The fact that the Christian Kurds have built some churches is another extremely interesting diversion. Not surprising, though, since Christians DO tend to build churches.

Just out of idle curiosity - any idea whose proxy ISIS is?

And if no one's, just out of idle curiosity, how the **** did they hold off the world's armies without a state sponsor, using only found weapons and found amunition?

they went into cities for one.

nothing pissed me off more than when trump gave the green light to turkey to kill the kurds. and many in washington felt the same way, mcconnell etc. I cannot see how anyone can support trump after that, they all knew he was completely wrong to do it.
 

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 1:40 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 1:40 am

the syrian kurds have both muslim and christian.

and they all hate isis who are sunni,

Yeah, we've already trod this ground underfoot. Basically, to the extent that forensics are impossible - too much traffic. 

So, back to the issue, who controls ISIS - and if no one, how did they hold of the entire world's military with a seemingly inexhaustible supply of found guns and found ammo?
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 2:05 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 2:05 am

Yeah, we've already trod this ground underfoot. Basically, to the extent that forensics are impossible - too much traffic. 

So, back to the issue, who controls ISIS - and if no one, how did they hold of the entire world's military with a seemingly inexhaustible supply of found guns and found ammo?

there were a lot of weapons, tanks from both sides.

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 2:03 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 2:03 am

they went into cities for one.

nothing pissed me off more than when trump gave the green light to turkey to kill the kurds. and many in washington felt the same way, mcconnell etc. I cannot see how anyone can support trump after that, they all knew he was completely wrong to do it.

The Kurds are stateless terrorists. You should be mad at OBAMA for arming them - not at Trump for stopping. 

I really cannot understand how you expected the United States to not only fund known terrorists on a NATO ally's border, but then STAND THAT ALLY DOWN when they came to put things right. 

The Kurds do not have a state - so they cannot be allies. They were proxies. Proxies are expendable. NATO allies that possess your nuclear missile batteries, not so much. They are not expendable. 

EVERYTHING we did in Syria was against international law - except standing down. And AGAIN, Trump's orders were routinely ignored. If his generals took that order, they had good reason. 
 

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 2:07 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 2:07 am

there were a lot of weapons, tanks from both sides.

So, the house gave ISIS credit to stay in the game? 

What did they have for collateral?
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 2:10 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 2:10 am

The Kurds are stateless terrorists. You should be mad at OBAMA for arming them - not at Trump for stopping. 

I really cannot understand how you expected the United States to not only fund known terrorists on a NATO ally's border, but then STAND THAT ALLY DOWN when they came to put things right. 

The Kurds do not have a state - so they cannot be allies. They were proxies. Proxies are expendable. NATO allies that possess your nuclear missile batteries, not so much. They are not expendable. 

EVERYTHING we did in Syria was against international law - except standing down. And AGAIN, Trump's orders were routinely ignored. If his generals took that order, they had good reason.

Mcconnell's statement after trump gave the green light.

--------------------------------------------------------------------Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) offered an unprompted defense of the Kurds on Wednesday, hours after President Trump said they “weren’t angels.”McConnell began his weekly leadership press conference by speaking about the Kurds, noting that they were “great fighters” and had been an “extremely valuable alliance.”“I want to express my gratitude to the Kurds,” he added.{mosads}McConnell didn’t directly mention Trump during his initial remarks, but noted the situation in Syria was “very concerning.”“I’m sorry that we are where we are. I hope the vice president and the Secretary of State can somehow repair the damage,” McConnell said. 
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Nov 2023, 12:11 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 12:11 am

You cannot defend that apartheid ****, so you latch onto disingenuous wordplay. ANYTHING but the issue. 

HAMAS can object to the treatment of Palis outside of gaza, fruitcake, without being in charge of those areas' administration. 

How about you respond to the issue, which is an elderly couple being evicted by the government from their home of 50 years because of their ethnicity, in order for jewish settlers to steal their property?

                Apartheid??? 
Again, who has been governing Gaza since 2007?  

               This thread is about Gaza.... You're trying to move the **** geographic goal post from Gaza to East Jerusalem which involves the PA, not Hamas, because you know you are dead in the water trying to absolve Hamas from being largely responsible for the conflict & suffering that is happening in Gaza right now...  That is the issue you Pole-smoking, purple-haired, Gerbil-Jockey......   

           

jerrab » 02 Nov 2023, 2:12 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 2:12 am

Mcconnell's statement after trump gave the green light.

--------------------------------------------------------------------Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) offered an unprompted defense of the Kurds on Wednesday, hours after President Trump said they “weren’t angels.”McConnell began his weekly leadership press conference by speaking about the Kurds, noting that they were “great fighters” and had been an “extremely valuable alliance.”“I want to express my gratitude to the Kurds,” he added.{mosads}McConnell didn’t directly mention Trump during his initial remarks, but noted the situation in Syria was “very concerning.”“I’m sorry that we are where we are. I hope the vice president and the Secretary of State can somehow repair the damage,” McConnell said.

Seriously, bro. You're down to the MIC's turtle?

You're quoting a fellow who calls proxies allies. Words matter - and people in leadership are responsible to use words responsibly. Your choice of authorities is abysmal. Of all the people on earth to reference, mitch mcconnell is truly the bottom of the barrel. 

Obama committed serious crimes and political stupidities when he armed the Kurds. They paid a price for it - but Obama knew they would going in. I said it before it happened - that Erdogan was going to go after the Kurds, and that this was going to damage US-Turkey relations. Hell, I could figure THAT much out, and I'm a regular joe with a decent vocab and reasonable typing skills. 
 

Kobia2 » 02 Nov 2023, 2:14 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2023, 2:14 am

                Apartheid??? 
Again, who has been governing Gaza since 2007?  

               This thread is about Gaza....

What happened in gaza shone a light on the larger issue. I can see where YOU would want to keep it narrow.

I don't.

I can see where YOU think mentioning these related matters is off topic. 

I don't.

What happened in Gaza happened because of how israel treats palestinians. That is the root cause - and that is relevant. 

I stand with the queers and you stand with the democrat establishment, the republican establishment, and the MIC.

I'm good with that, fruitcake.