Liberal Forum

Majik » 03 Nov 2023, 11:03 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 11:03 am

Here is an opinion .....

We are crying with Palestinians: Jewish anti-Zionist group‘Despite Muslims and Jews having lived together for centuries, Zionists claim opposition to their state is due to Muslims hating Jews,’ says anti-Zionist rabbiSule Ozkan  |30.10.2023 - Update : 31.10.2023Real believers in Judaism mourn the crimes being done to Palestinians by the state of Israel, as these violations are clearly barred by their faith, said a spokesman for an anti-Zionist group. "In our religion, killing and stealing are clearly forbidden. (Israel), on the other hand, establishes its state by taking it from the Arabs. That's why we are crying with the Palestinians,” said Yisroel Dovid Weiss, a rabbi and spokesman for Neturei Karta, a group founded in Jerusalem.In an interview with Anadolu, Weiss discussed the principles of Zionism, the founding ideology of the state of Israel, as well as the use of violence against Palestinians and the appropriation of land.Weiss said there are many people who confuse Judaism and Zionism and are confused about this.“Zionism is the ideology of the state of Israel, which tries to present itself as the Jewish state. They claim that they represent Jewish religion, they claim that they are speaking in the name of God.They claim that they are the voice around the world of Jewish people that have an attachment with God or the Torah. That’s not true,” said Weiss, referring to the first five books of the Jewish and Christian scriptures.Weiss highlighted that those “who speak up against” this situation are often labeled "antisemitic" or "haters of the Jewish people and their religion."He said that in reality, Judaism and Zionism are fundamentally opposed to each other.He said Zionism led to the Great Catastrophe (Nakba) in 1948, with the founding of the state of Israel, which resulted in the forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.  ‘

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Exactly. I have seen real Jews speak against Israel. It's important to distinguish the difference. 

DeezerShoove » 03 Nov 2023, 10:57 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 10:57 am

Why is ethnic cleansing bad? (I'm not trying to trap with a set up question.)
Is that, in and of itself, the reason to be against a country? Or a group (for lack of a better term)?

Also...
Was Israel "created" in the heat of the moment after WWII?
Maybe some sense of world-wide guilt or pity?
A guilt or pity that not everyone felt, perhaps.

For instance, it took 40 years (in 1988) for a PLO leader to acknowledge the right of Israel to even exist.
The partitioning in the 1940's wasn't to everyone's liking evidently, UN Security Council edict notwithstanding.

That long-term resentment, justified or not, bred factions into existence. And assassinations. And wars.
I'm not trying to appear to side with anyone and certainly not going to shed crocodile tears over this.
It is a regional conflict that has international stake holders unfortunately.

Waving "dead children" around as though we care more deeply now seems disingenuous. Jus' sayin'...

Timeline of Israel:
https://world101.cfr.org/understanding- ... t-timeline

What makes their lives any less worthy than yours? 

Hey Majik, thanks for the education. It squares with what I just learned from Sumela. I stupidly wasn’t very aware, certainly never looked into the matter much before. Egg on my face.
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 11:48 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 11:48 am

Exactly. I have seen real Jews speak against Israel. It's important to distinguish the difference.

Jews diligently practice Judaism and follow the edicts of the Torah to the letter...
Zionists are secular and  through out their history especially their earlly history pre-1948 hated religious Judaism to such an extent they collaborated against European Religious  Jewry and even collaborated with Hitler against Religious Jewry because Hitler promised The Zionists their own homeland .....
Not a Jewish homeland but a Zionist homeland ....


 

Majik » 03 Nov 2023, 12:04 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 12:04 pm

Jews diligently practice Judaism and follow the edicts of the Torah to the letter...
Zionists are secular and  through out their history especially their earlly history pre-1948 hated religious Judaism to such an extent they collaborated against European Religious  Jewry and even collaborated with Hitler against Religious Jewry because Hitler promised The Zionists their own homeland .....
Not a Jewish homeland but a Zionist homeland ....

Yep. Israel is one enormous cult. 

gaza is guilty for not wanting to be slaves, and opposing israel stealing their homes. usa is guilty of not killing more gaza people. as for israel, they are gods chosen people. so. kill for the jews, and you will be their servants in heaven.

Tempest62 » 03 Nov 2023, 11:54 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 11:54 am

Hey Majik, thanks for the education. It squares with what I just learned from Sumela. I stupidly wasn’t very aware, certainly never looked into the matter much before. Egg on my face.

Here is a link with good information .....
https://www.nkusa.org/
 

 

NETUREI KARTA of THE ORTHODOX JEWRY
JERUSALEM, PALESTINE
Jan 31.08

URGENT PRESS RELEASE
In the past week the so-called Chief Rabbi of the so-called State of "Israel", Yona Metzger, has made vicious and provocative statements asserting that the Palestinians living in Gaza should be moved from their homes into the Sinai desert.

Yona Metzger is not an authentic Torah authority, despite the fact that he carries the so-called title of "Chief Rabbi". Chief rabbis of the Zionist State only carry legitimacy in the eyes of Zionist Jews. His status as a chief rabbi is not unlike the leadership of Theodor Herzl, who also wore a beard!

The State of "Israel" is illegitimate according to the Torah teachings. The founding of the State of "Israel" is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until released from that exile by G-d Himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace.

We are likewise forbidden to rebel against any nation. We are to remain peaceful and loyal citizens, in every country in which we reside. Therefore to oppress the Palestinian people, harm them, steal their land, expel them, etc. is totally forbidden according to our Holy Torah.

The Rabbinical authorities universally have stood in vehement opposition to the ideology of Zionism and have opposed the state of "Israel" from its creation until the present day.

Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their land in historic Palestine and to establish their independent state in the entire Holy Land, which was forcefully taken from them by the Zionists. Indeed, many Gazans are refugees who were expelled from other areas of Palestine by the Zionists ever since 1948.

Chief Rabbis of the Zionist state, whether Metzger or anyone else, are merely very well-paid stooges of the Zionists and serve their Zionist masters without regard for the welfare of the Jewish People, the Palestinians, or any other nation in the world.

The Chief Rabbinate of the Zionist State, just as all Zionist institutions, has importance only because of its coercive power over the religious, economic and everyday life of the Jewish residents of Zionist occupied Palestine. Whoever recognizes and supports the Zionist State, even innocently, has been taken over by the heretical Zionist movement, no matter how large the halo that it is granted by supposed Jewish authorities.

Chief Rabbis, and other rabbis who support the existence of the Zionist state, are wicked emissaries of evil. Such "rabbis" promote hatred and war, and use their coercive powers to demand subservience of Jews to the Zionist enterprise. This description that we posit of such people has been the long-standing position of authentic rabbis for the last century.

Yona Metzger expresses feelings of inhumanity which originates in his loyalty to the cult of Zionism and is perfectly prepared to sacrifice Jewish lives on the altar of his idolatry, the State of "Israel." Any moral person would much prefer to see the Zionist warmongers, including Metzger, removed from the Holy Land. METZGER AND ALL ZIONIST RABBIS DO NOT REPRESENT THE JEWISH RELIGION.

https://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statem ... estine.cfm
 
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 11:48 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 11:48 am

Exactly. I have seen real Jews speak against Israel. It's important to distinguish the difference.

https://youtu.be/gIX368TtOJs
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 9:34 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 9:34 am

Israel is ethnic cleansing. Zionism's goal was to rid their territory of all Palestinians. That has been the plan since 1948 when they adopted a plan that laid out a tactic to do so. If you see that this happens, will you then admit that Israel is just as evil as Hamas? Hamas does sick butchery. Israel commits genocide. Are you really going to compare the two?

Drinking the same kool-aid as you would help. Hurt but help advance your idiotic understanding of history. 
 

Neo » 03 Nov 2023, 12:24 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 12:24 pm

Drinking the same kool-aid as you would help. Hurt but help advance your idiotic understanding of history.

This is usually what ignorant people say to people who are informed. 

Neo » 03 Nov 2023, 12:24 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 12:24 pm

Drinking the same kool-aid as you would help. Hurt but help advance your idiotic understanding of history.

You got cucked...

https://youtu.be/gIX368TtOJs
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 12:27 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 12:27 pm

This is usually what ignorant people say to people who are informed.

He is unable to refute with facts.....

Facts dont matter to Jew Worshippers
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 9:34 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 9:34 am

Israel is ethnic cleansing. Zionism's goal was to rid their territory of all Palestinians. That has been the plan since 1948 when they adopted a plan that laid out a tactic to do so. If you see that this happens, will you then admit that Israel is just as evil as Hamas? Hamas does sick butchery. Israel commits genocide. Are you really going to compare the two?

You are dead wrong about this.  In 1967, Israel was attacked by Jordan, Syria and Egypt without provocation.  This was an all-out attempt to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. 

Israel fought back.  They had been attacked before, knew what to expect and were ready to defend their country.  In fact, they were quite effective in defeating these three nations.  After the 1967 war, Israel conquered and took land from Egypt, Syria and Jordan.  This is what Israel's post-67 borders looked like.



The map should actually include a sizeable chunk of Jordan and more of Syria being captured, but after Jordan was defeated, Israel gave Jordan much of the land it captured back, and Israel only kept the Golan from the land it captured from Syria.

For years, the entire Sinai (including Gaza), the entire West Bank were Israels.  It was within Israel's rights to keep all of this land and force the inhabitants to submit to its laws or be expelled, since Israel was not the aggressor and was merely defending itself. To the victors go the spoils of war!

However, Israel wanted peace with Egypt.  So, Israel negotiated for that peace and gave Egypt back the Sinai, except Gaza which Egypt didn't want. Dumb move on Israel's part, IMHO.

And, Israel wanted peace with Jordan, so it gave Jordan most of its land back.  Jordan, however, being butt-sore from losing the war, shoved a bunch of Jordan's Palestinians into the West Bank, which Israel kept, and said "there you go - now you Jews can deal with these assholes".    That's right, most of the so-called Palestinians of the West Bank are nothing more than displaced Jordanians.  And, that's right, "Gaza" was once part of Egypt, or under Egyptian military rule. They're basically Egyptians that the Egyptians don't want back. 

So, Israel has the right to shove all the Gazans back into Egypt and all of the West Bank'ers back into Jordan.  That is all land Israel rightfully captured and may rightfully keep for its own.  The mere fact that Israel allows Gazans to exist in Gaza and Palestinians to exist in the West Bank region is beyond generous compared to what other Arab nations did to the Palestinians, and tried to do to the Jews.
 
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 11:49 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 11:49 am

What makes their lives any less worthy than yours?

I never implied that at all.
I was thinking more of self-preservation albeit in an unpleasant way.

Even NPR considers genocide and ethnic cleansing as two different actions.

You appear to consider them equal.

 

Jews bombing near another hospital.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1720456015236231442

@actionjackson
@Cannon Pointer  
Hey you Churchy ****, this would be a good place to insert a sermon on Religious Bigotry darkening the heart and casting a cloud of fear over your existence.
 

Vegas » 03 Nov 2023, 12:27 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 12:27 pm

This is usually what ignorant people say to people who are informed.

You got special knowledge. Men can be women. Jews control everything. Water is not always wet. Women have secrets. Who gives a ****?
 

Skans » 03 Nov 2023, 1:01 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2023, 1:01 pm

You are dead wrong about this.  In 1967, Israel was attacked by Jordan, Syria and Egypt without provocation.  T

 

The part I bolded is why you are wrong. In 1948, Israel made it very clear, without  even making an attempt to hide it, that their end goal was a Zion state. They laid out a blueprint that included wiping the Palestinians off the Earth. Year after year, they made good on those claims by inching and encroaching on the Palestinians. The Arabs had enough and began their own campaign against them. Israel succeeded in brainwashing the West that they are the victims. They aren't.