Liberal Forum

HarveyMushman » 07 Jan 2024, 12:02 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 12:02 pm

Zeets2: "So, is it your solution that the U.S. be required to trade with despotic regimes like Cuba and Venezuela and aid and support them?"

I don't know what an attempt to require the U.S. to trade with and aid Cuba and Venezuela would look like; however, it would suffice if the U.S. would only allow other states to deal with socialist Cuba and capitalist Venezuela. That would be more than enough for Cuba to modernize its infrastructure and provide even more improvements for its people. But the U.S. won't allow for that because the enormous social gains already achieved by the Cuban Revolution serve as a threat of a good example that the U.S. cannot help but thwart. 

And since Zeets2 is opposed to the U.S. trading with despotic regimes, Zeets2 needs to call for U.S. embargos against Saudi Arabia, Israel, and many other authoritarian governments the U.S. trades with. 

Zeets2: "And isn't it ironic that you compared their plight to the most poorly run and most left-wing socialist cities like Detroit, Newark, and Dayton? Please don't leave out the mess that liberals have made of San Francisco, Chicago, LA, NY, Portland, Seattle, Baltimore, and Philadelphia,  that you support in their socialist-loving agendas!"

My comparison wouldn't be ironic even (if) socialism were manifested in those cities, which it is not. Beyond the scope of the capitalist juggernaut that envelopes the globe, what occurs in the U.S. and Cuba are separate and distinct from one another. The ever-decaying conditions within cities like Detroit are wholly the result of the deindustrialization that has come about in the wake of many capitalists transferring their industrial capacity overseas. The devastating socioeconomic effects of deindustrialization and capitalism are felt by Democratic and Republican mayors, who are mainly powerless to counter those pathologies. 

Per the assertion that I support Dem mayors, I haven't voted in favor of a Democratic politician since 1984, for like their Republican "counterparts," they are pro-capitalist politicians, while I am a Marxist, specifically a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. Indeed, Zeets2 and all other pro-capitalists share more in common with Democratic politicians than I do. 

Good day.

Well, Harvey, I think it's time you took off those rose-colored glasses with which you envision Castro's revolution, where you apparently see non-existent "enormous social gains" that you think were a "good example" that the US should follow.  And you seem to believe that the US did not have just cause to cease diplomatic relations with Cuba, regardless of their kidnapping of Americans, their confiscation of foreign assets, his refusal to allow Cuba to hold new elections as he promised, and despite his torture and executions of 600 people from the Batista regime.  Yet you still think the US wasn't justified by our response despite our being one of the first to publicly recognize the Castro government as legitimate, which gave them every opportunity to follow the path of the free market and capitalism, and you can't understand why we broke diplomatic ties with him.

Funniest of all, you see no comparison whatsoever to the devastating condition of cities like San Francisco, Chicago, LA, Philly, Newark, Detroit, and Baltimore, all who have held a stranglehold on state and local governments that continually promote every radical socialist policy that comes down the pike. 

You may not support the DNC, but you can't deny that their policies are far more socialistic than any the GOP ever supports, AND that they've failed miserably in every one of those cities.  One day I may provide you with the socialist reasons that they became deindustrialized, and it was NOT due to their following of capitalism, and were NOT incapable of counteracting those socialist pathologies.

And a good day to you too, sir.

 
 

ROG62 » 07 Jan 2024, 7:12 am » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 7:12 am

whether true or not, it's not an opinion piece, 4 sources...

ostrich...

4 sources that serve the US Empire.... .  Remember?  The Swamp?  Fake News?  Trumpy told you.  
 

HarveyMushman » 07 Jan 2024, 11:40 am » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 11:40 am

LowIQTrash: "Great Leap Forward."

Thank you.

LowIQTYrash: "To be honest I'd rather take the left-communist approach to arguing vs you since "reactionaries and liberals" are already plentiful…as you may have noted."

As a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, I am accustomed to that.

You should use the quote function so people will easily see your replies. Otherwise they’d have to dig around.

HarveyMushman » 07 Jan 2024, 11:52 am » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 11:52 am

Since the Soviet Union transformed itself from a backward, predominantly peasant society to an industrial powerhouse in fewer than fifty years, including its victory over the U.S. vis-a-vis the space race, I don't know that capitalist countries' living standards grew "at a much faster pace."     One could argue that certain aspects of capitalist societies' living standards outpaced those of the Soviet Union. But, concerning rates of infant mortality, neonatal death, education, employment, etc., all of which began to improve almost immediately, the pace of improvement relative to the USSR's standard of living was, in many ways, one of the fastest in human history.

But maybe, like virtually all anti-communists, LowIQTrash can't bring themself to acknowledge the apparent accomplishments of socialism. It's associated with the fact that anti-communists nearly always ignore the devastating effects of the U.S. embargo against Cuba when noting and criticizing the precarity of Cuban society. Indeed, it seems as if a 10.0 earthquake were to strike Cuba, anti-communists would blame socialism for the damage rather than the earthquake. 

As for Reactionaries and liberals bringing up the number of deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward, yes, they will do that, and often for a good reason. After all, excesses were carried out under the Great Leap Forward and within all epochs of the Chinese Revolution. But, as its continuing genocide of First Nation peoples demonstrates as a single example, the U.S. has no room in which to criticize others concerning excesses. 

That's refreshing.

Would that, in your mind, be the U.S.?

I don’t feel like separating all the arguments into their own blocks so I’ll just reply in one setting:

1) “The Soviet Union transformed itself from a backwards agrarian nation into an industrial powerhouse in fewer than 50 yrs”

One could say the same about capitalist countries like the United States or China post-Mao. 

Also, if you wanted to make an objective comparison, you’d have to determine whether Russia would have been better off under, say, republican + Social Democratic rule vs rule under the Bolsheviks.

2) “I don't know that capitalist countries' living standards grew "at a much faster pace.”

So I looked at the data and it appears the Soviet Union did manage to close the gap (somewhat) after WW2 between itself and Western Europe/the USA. Obviously comparing the economy of a war torn country with one that suffered nary a scratch is unfair.

However if you look at other countries that claimed to adhere to MLM (Marxist Leninist Maoist) principles your narrative suffers seriously.

China remained quite poor throughout Mao’s rule. Laos’ economy almost collapsed after attempting Maoist collectivization (The ruling party eventually acknowledged that having failed to go through the “capitalist” phase made socialism - and eventually communism - “impossible”)

Vietnam’s economy stalled after 1975 for some 7 odd years - Dengist reforms began in 1986.

https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/5 ... ure1-1.png

Now in fairness to pure Marxist orthodoxy, the examples I cited above failed more or less due to semi-autarky rather than socialist policies themselves.

…but then you have to ask yourself why so many MLM leaders sucked at economic planning to the point it seemed like they were sabotaging their own people

3) “But, concerning rates of infant mortality, neonatal death, education, employment, etc., all of which began to improve almost immediately”

Relative, not absolute, gains are what matters. You should not compare these countries to themselves on a timeline. You need to compare them to results achieved in their capitalist counterparts. 

(to be continued due to character limit)

 
 

HarveyMushman » 07 Jan 2024, 11:52 am » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 11:52 am

But maybe, like virtually all anti-communists, LowIQTrash can't bring themself to acknowledge the apparent accomplishments of socialism. It's associated with the fact that anti-communists nearly always ignore the devastating effects of the U.S. embargo against Cuba when noting and criticizing the precarity of Cuban society. Indeed, it seems as if a 10.0 earthquake were to strike Cuba, anti-communists would blame socialism for the damage rather than the earthquake. 

As for Reactionaries and liberals bringing up the number of deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward, yes, they will do that, and often for a good reason. After all, excesses were carried out under the Great Leap Forward and within all epochs of the Chinese Revolution. But, as its continuing genocide of First Nation peoples demonstrates as a single example, the U.S. has no room in which to criticize others concerning excesses. 

LowIQTrash: "By the way, there is one rousing success of a socialist nation, but you aren't "allowed" to discuss it."

Would that, in your mind, be the U.S.?

4) “But maybe, like virtually all anti-communists, LowIQTrash can't bring themself to acknowledge the apparent accomplishments of socialism.”

Believe it or not, if you asked me to choose between capitalism and socialism, I’d choose the latter (but not Marxism-Leninism; I have a different idea in mind)

What I question is 

1) Whether the achievements you ascribe to socialism are actually due to socialist policies (as opposed to something else, like say modernization and industrialization) 
2) Whether those countries actually practiced socialism

The Soviet Union and like countries seemed to more or less represent some sort of anti-bourgeois, state capitalist system. 

Anti-bourgeois because they clearly despised small business / small shop / small scale landowners, and as some of your left-communist “colleagues” (thorns on your side) might note, there was never any serious attempt to do away with commodity exchange. Private wage labor was abolished, only to be replaced with a wage “offered” to (foisted upon) the glorious worker by the state.

5) “Indeed, it seems as if a 10.0 earthquake were to strike Cuba, anti-communists would blame socialism for the damage rather than the earthquake.”

Oh, I assure you, I would never do any such thing. 

I can only imagine dimwitted libertarians and conservatives stooping that low

(“Cuba got hit with an EQ and people died, socialism’s fault”)

6) “But, as its continuing genocide of First Nation peoples demonstrates as a single example, the U.S. has no room in which to criticize others concerning excesses.”

Agreed. Capitalism has caused the untold death of millions…tens and perhaps even hundred(s) of millions with episodes like the Bengal famine and King Leopold.

Capitalism is far from a “non-violent” system - contrary to the propaganda from libertarians, neoliberals, and conservatives.

However, I’d say the record for MLM states isn’t “anything to brag about” as noted earlier given that a large # of deaths did occur under the likes of Stalin, Mao, etc. 

7) “Would that, in your mind, be the U.S.?”

Not at all. I am referencing the economic policies carried out by National Socialist Germany, which ended the Great Depression caused by “a certain group” of the usual suspects and basically reversed almost 20 years of economic damage in the span of maybe 3-4 years. There really is no precedent or peer in modern times.

I understand you (and MLMs in general) have been told that “Nazi Germany isn’t socialist and fascism is capitalism in decay” but the definition of socialism I use is different from yours. National socialism is an offshoot of “right wing” socialism in contrast to the internationalist agenda of Marxism.

 
 

Pinging @FOS  
 

Zeets2 » 07 Jan 2024, 1:09 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 1:09 pm

Well, Harvey, I think it's time you took off those rose-colored glasses with which you envision Castro's revolution, where you apparently see non-existent "enormous social gains" that you think were a "good example" that the US should follow.  And you seem to believe that the US did not have just cause to cease diplomatic relations with Cuba, regardless of their kidnapping of Americans, their confiscation of foreign assets, his refusal to allow Cuba to hold new elections as he promised, and despite his torture and executions of 600 people from the Batista regime.  Yet you still think the US wasn't justified by our response despite our being one of the first to publicly recognize the Castro government as legitimate, which gave them every opportunity to follow the path of the free market and capitalism, and you can't understand why we broke diplomatic ties with him.

Funniest of all, you see no comparison whatsoever to the devastating condition of cities like San Francisco, Chicago, LA, Philly, Newark, Detroit, and Baltimore, all who have held a stranglehold on state and local governments that continually promote every radical socialist policy that comes down the pike. 

You may not support the DNC, but you can't deny that their policies are far more socialistic than any the GOP ever supports, AND that they've failed miserably in every one of those cities.  One day I may provide you with the socialist reasons that they became deindustrialized, and it was NOT due to their following of capitalism, and were NOT incapable of counteracting those socialist pathologies.

And a good day to you too, sir.

Those “progressive ****” did not fail due to “socialism.”

Well, for one…many of those have a huge % of blacks…but additionally…

They failed due to a combination of de-industrialization and insane policies like effectively legalizing shoplifting and condoning drug addiction - all are part of a (((CONTROLLED DEMOLITION))) scheme carried out by the “usual suspects.” 

IN OTHER WORDS those “progressive ****” ARE NOT “failures” at all. They are a smashing success - because the results was (((THEIR))) Intention all along.
 
 

UksepSHUnalJIZM

Sumela » 05 Jan 2024, 9:27 pm » wrote: ↑

05 Jan 2024, 9:27 pm

Fair enough. BUT - I know enough to know that if the Empire of Chaos is ALWAYS

purporting that NK folks are eating rats and bat anuses and are near

cannibalism.....then likely the opposite is true.

I despise the “Anglo-Zionist” regime as much as you. However, I still have no qualms with criticizing other regimes (see my responses to self proclaimed Marxist Leninist HarveyMushman…if you want to read a wall of text)

That being said, I do have an issue with “3rd world” Marxists like Andre Vletchek or whatever his name is - the fact that your country was colonized some 30 odd years ago shouldn’t be an excuse for poor economic performance afterwards.

Believe it or not there are options beyond “stay poor” and “serve the US regime”…

LowIQTrash » 07 Jan 2024, 11:45 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 11:45 pm

I despise the “Anglo-Zionist” regime as much as you. However, I still have no qualms with criticizing other regimes (see my responses to self proclaimed Marxist Leninist HarveyMushman…if you want to read a wall of text)

That being said, I do have an issue with “3rd world” Marxists like Andre Vletchek or whatever his name is - the fact that your country was colonized some 30 odd years ago shouldn’t be an excuse for poor economic performance afterwards.

Believe it or not there are options beyond “stay poor” and “serve the US regime”…

No idea who Andre Vletchek is.
My belief system is simple.

The US Anglo/Zionist Empire is the scourge/evil of the world. SATAN.

Anyone who opposes it is my friend. PERIOD.  Got it?
 

Cannonpointer » 06 Jan 2024, 1:14 pm » wrote: ↑

06 Jan 2024, 1:14 pm

I have no duty to show you any data, you **** idiot. Someone else gave the number - and you responded shamefully. 

I spoke to your shameful response - not to the number (which I suspect is understated).

I don’t think it’s understated. The number I saw from an anti-empire source (total # of people killed by the US empire since 1945) back in 2015 was “6 million.” 

Always that number…  

LowIQTrash » 07 Jan 2024, 11:33 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 11:33 pm

Those progressive **** did not fail due to “socialism.”

They failed due to a combination of de-industrialization and insane policies like effectively legalizing shoplifting and condoning drug addiction - all are part of a (CONTROLLED DEMOLITION) scheme carried out by the “usual suspects.” 

IN OTHER WORDS those “progressive ****” ARE NOT “failures” at all. They are a smashing success - because the results was (THEIR) Intention all along.

I disagree completely.
Regardless of whether or not those cities succeeded in intentionally causing their downfall, those policies have been enacted by extremely radical liberals in government ARE SOCIALIST!  Each you mentioned and many more ARE SOCIALIST POLICIES; condoning and supporting drug addicts, defunding police departments, failure to prosecute repeat criminals, higher and higher taxes on the wealthy, no bail laws, indoctrination of school children, removing prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance from school, promoting kids who failed to meet basic standards, welfare funding with few restrictions, open border policies, "spreading the wealth around" as Obama promised, allowing homeless to set up camp to live on the street, spending trillions on hoax of "global warming", all those and more with the sole purpose of legislating "equity" within the country.  Those policies are the very rejection of capitalism, with the intent of centralizing authority within the government, and DO NOT believe in individualism of its citizens.  Socialist want "equity" for the worst dregs of society to receive the same benefits as those hardest working citizens, who understandably become infuriated to see it.

Socialists like you can never accept the fact that these policies inevitably remove the incentive for hard work and self-determination.  The destruction is assured when the hardest working Americans see that their ever-rising taxation continues and even expands the funding of those who choose not to work, have kids they can't support, the extreme failures of urban schools when students know they'll be promoted without fundamental scholastic skills, minimum wage laws that force employers to pay exorbitant wages to barely literate workers, union laws that encourage minimum levels of competence, and leniency of laws that  encourage law-breaking by career criminals, and much more.

Higher standards and a return to meritocracy in capitalism are the only things that will reverse the trend for these cities and in this country.
I encourage you to read this parable which provides the most basic understanding of why socialism has failed EVERY TIME IT'S TRIED:

How To Catch Wild Pigs
A Lesson In Socialism. You can catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods where they frequent and placing an adequate amount of corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, place a fence down one side of the area where they are used to coming. When they get used to the section of fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that small change in environment and start to eat again. You continue this process until you have all four sides of the fence up, with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to eating the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat. When you see that they all are peacefully eating the free corn, you slam the gate shut on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around inside the fence, but they are caught. They eventually accept their situation and soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are now owned. They are not free to do what they used to be able to do. That is exactly what is happening to America.

 
 

HarveyMushman » 05 Jan 2024, 8:48 am » wrote: ↑

05 Jan 2024, 8:48 am

Social experiments.....

Harvey, what do you do with a "social experiment" that goes awry???

Need a hint?

 

Zeets2 » 08 Jan 2024, 10:34 am » wrote: ↑

08 Jan 2024, 10:34 am

I disagree completely.
Regardless of whether or not those cities succeeded in intentionally causing their downfall, those policies have been enacted by extremely radical liberals in government ARE SOCIALIST!  Each you mentioned and many more ARE SOCIALIST POLICIES; condoning and supporting drug addicts, defunding police departments, failure to prosecute repeat criminals, higher and higher taxes on the wealthy, no bail laws, indoctrination of school children, removing prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance from school, promoting kids who failed to meet basic standards, welfare funding with few restrictions, open border policies, "spreading the wealth around" as Obama promised, allowing homeless to set up camp to live on the street, spending trillions on hoax of "global warming", all those and more with the sole purpose of legislating "equity" within the country.  Those policies are the very rejection of capitalism, with the intent of centralizing authority within the government, and DO NOT believe in individualism of its citizens.  Socialist want "equity" for the worst dregs of society to receive the same benefits as those hardest working citizens, who understandably become infuriated to see it.

Socialists like you can never accept the fact that these policies inevitably remove the incentive for hard work and self-determination.  The destruction is assured when the hardest working Americans see that their ever-rising taxation continues and even expands the funding of those who choose not to work, have kids they can't support, the extreme failures of urban schools when students know they'll be promoted without fundamental scholastic skills, minimum wage laws that force employers to pay exorbitant wages to barely literate workers, union laws that encourage minimum levels of competence, and leniency of laws that  encourage law-breaking by career criminals, and much more.

Higher standards and a return to meritocracy in capitalism are the only things that will reverse the trend for these cities and in this country.
I encourage you to read this parable which provides the most basic understanding of why socialism has failed EVERY TIME IT'S TRIED:

San Francisco is a tech hub with thousands of startups backed up by venture capital / angel investor seed money. How does a city governed by “socialists” (according to you) allow PRIVATE investors to pour billions of dollars each year into businesses? How does a city governed by “socialists” (according to you) also enable investors to drive up the price of real estate to stratospheric levels?

Are you going to tell me that JEW York City, home of Wall Street, is governed by “socialists” next? 

And explain why countries which, based on YOUR definition of socialism (which is wrong but let’s assume it’s valid for the sake of argument) are doing just fine (Denmark, Switzerland, Iceland, etc.)

Sumela » 07 Jan 2024, 9:38 pm » wrote: ↑

07 Jan 2024, 9:38 pm

4 sources that serve the US Empire.... .  Remember?  The Swamp?  Fake News?  Trumpy told you.

count much?
Trump tells me nothing..NEXT!

ROG62 » 08 Jan 2024, 11:12 am » wrote: ↑

08 Jan 2024, 11:12 am

count much?
Trump tells me nothing..NEXT!

Trumpyton owns your brain....  
 

Sumela » 08 Jan 2024, 11:13 am » wrote: ↑

08 Jan 2024, 11:13 am

Trumpyton owns your brain....

huh, wasn't it jewtown last week?
 

All you have to do to be a Socialist is, take away all personal responsibility.

ROG62 » 08 Jan 2024, 11:19 am » wrote: ↑

08 Jan 2024, 11:19 am

huh, wasn't it jewtown last week?

Lil Roggy....you never even really know what you believe...

so its always a guessing game from day to day, week to week   ****'s fragile  
 

Sumela » 08 Jan 2024, 11:35 am » wrote: ↑

08 Jan 2024, 11:35 am

Lil Roggy....you never even really know what you believe...

so its always a guessing game from day to day, week to week   ****'s fragile

I always KNOW what I believe smella...the rest is just fodder...