Liberal Forum

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 1:55 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 1:55 pm

The point is that an individual shouldn't help the bank make money.
 

You're really looking at this all wrong, IMHO.  Everyone is out to make money, Banks included - that's a given.  You can choose to work with that, or opt out of having dealings with any lender.  The latter would be a big mistake if you want some degree of financial success, in my opinion.

They make it off of your debt.

Actually, banks make their money off of fees associated with loans, accounts, etc. But, yes, they make money on the rate of interest too.  If they aren't, then they will have a team of regulators in their lobby shutting them down.

So, you have to be their slave for them to make money.

No.  You are not the Bank's slave.  Yes, if you and a bank enter into an agreement where you get money up front for something, then they will want the ability to make you pay it back. I don't see anything at all unfair about that.  And, of course the Bank will want to make money on your loan.  But, what you don't realize are two important things when it comes to loans:

• Individuals can come out the winner on a bank loan where they opt for a 20-year fixed as opposed to 30-year loan, and pay the loan all the way down to $0.  While the bank has the advantage over the first 10 years, you have the advantage over the last 10 years!  When you keep a loan to its term, you almost always end up beating inflation - after a few years, you are paying the bank off with deflated dollars!  This is why banks are always pushing re-fi's - they lose money when you pay the loan down to $0.
• Often, astute individuals will be presented with several genuinely good business opportunities over their lifetimes. You need to be able to capitalize on these opportunities by getting a loan/leverage, to get into good quality, long term investments.  You will want a good relationship with a banker before those opportunities present. 

To hell with that. I don't like the idea being a slave so someone else can make money off of me.

Then, you're a fool.  If others are not making money off of you, then you are worthless when it comes to matters of business. Examples

• If you are partners with someone in a business, you better WANT your partner to be better-off financially because of the partnership - in essence, you should be making money off of each other.
• If you work for a big company, you better want the company to profit from your work - otherwise, THEY WILL FIRE YOU.  If you are making money for the company, you will typically be promoted and raised accordingly.  Wouldn't you want to better a company financially that you are working for?

A bank is as much your business partner as a trusted individual with skills that complement yours.  You really are looking at this the wrong way.  Seriously, with your kind of attitude, I wouldn't even want you as a business partner, and I'd have a hard time hiring someone like that if I determined that their life-view demonized me for "making money off of you". 

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 2:12 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 2:12 pm

Definitely not Las Vegas. The land here has no soil for gardening. It's all rock and dirt, Lol. 

I have a old high school friend that lives on a ranch with her husband. They raise cattle, slaughter, and send their meat out to customers. All organic. Expensive as crazy. However, I wonder if people didn't have mortgages or debt payments, then they could eat healthier and good meat without all the chemical crap that is now on them. It's a win-win.

I do not live in Las Vegas for a reason. However, those that do tell me that the appeal is the weather and the glamour/sex appeal. When I say "garden variety", I am saying that it is average, typical, or modest. Folks are always asking me why I do not sell my current residence (Sparks) and move on up to the more prestigious areas such as Verdi, Incline Village, or Minden. My answer is that I want to live within my means and not incur more debt. 

Skans » 24 Jan 2024, 2:19 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 2:19 pm

You're really looking at this all wrong, IMHO.  Everyone is out to make money, Banks included - that's a given.  You can choose to work with that, or opt out of having dealings with any lender.  The latter would be a big mistake if you want some degree of financial success, in my opinion.

 

All perspective. As long as one has debt, they don't have the wealth. That wealth belongs to someone else, you just get to enjoy it, but it is never yours. That is not freedom. 

Actually, banks make their money off of fees associated with loans, accounts, etc. But, yes, they make money on the rate of interest too.  If they aren't, then they will have a team of regulators in their lobby shutting them down.

I don't care that they make money. I just don't want them making money off of me being a slave. 

No.  You are not the Bank's slave.  Yes, if you and a bank enter into an agreement where you get money up front for something, then they will want the ability to make you pay it back. I don't see anything at all unfair about that.  And, of course the Bank will want to make money on your loan.  But, what you don't realize are two important things when it comes to loans:

• Individuals can come out the winner on a bank loan where they opt for a 20-year fixed as opposed to 30-year loan, and pay the loan all the way down to $0.  While the bank has the advantage over the first 10 years, you have the advantage over the last 10 years!  When you keep a loan to its term, you almost always end up beating inflation - after a few years, you are paying the bank off with deflated dollars!  This is why banks are always pushing re-fi's - they lose money when you pay the loan down to $0.
• Often, astute individuals will be presented with several genuinely good business opportunities over their lifetimes. You need to be able to capitalize on these opportunities by getting a loan/leverage, to get into good quality, long term investments.  You will want a good relationship with a banker before those opportunities present. 

But I only have one lifetime. Being their slave for 20 years or 30 years is a huge chunk out of someone's life. 

Then, you're a fool.  If others are not making money off of you, then you are worthless when it comes to matters of business. Examples

• If you are partners with someone in a business, you better WANT your partner to be better-off financially because of the partnership - in essence, you should be making money off of each other.
• If you work for a big company, you better want the company to profit from your work - otherwise, THEY WILL FIRE YOU.  If you are making money for the company, you will typically be promoted and raised accordingly.  Wouldn't you want to better a company financially that you are working for?

I never said I didn't want people to profit off of me. I said that I didn't want people to make money off of me being a slave. Big difference. It's possible to have a win-win. They profit off of me, because I profit of them. 

 

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 2:31 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 2:31 pm

All perspective. As long as one has debt, they don't have the wealth. That wealth belongs to someone else, you just get to enjoy it, but it is never yours. That is not freedom. 

I don't care that they make money. I just don't want them making money off of me being a slave. 

But I only have one lifetime. Being their slave for 20 years or 30 years is a huge chunk out of someone's life. 

I never said I didn't want people to profit off of me. I said that I didn't want people to make money off of me being a slave. Big difference. It's possible to have a win-win. They profit off of me, because I profit of them.

If I borrow $1.5M and use this money to buy an industrial lot and build some 3,000sf bay warehouses, which in turn usually covers my debt, taxes and insurance, tell me, how am I a slave to the Bank?  All I have to do is keep the place leased up and maintained, and the money flows paying down my debt.

Its up to YOU what you do with the money a bank lends you.  You can be a ******* and squander it on something like a car or a swimming pool.  Or, you can be smart and make that money work for you. 
 
 

Skans » 24 Jan 2024, 2:40 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 2:40 pm

If I borrow $1.5M and use this money to buy an industrial lot and build some 3,000sf bay warehouses, which in turn usually covers my debt, taxes and insurance, tell me, how am I a slave to the Bank?  All I have to do is keep the place leased up and maintained, and the money flows paying down my debt.

Its up to YOU what you do with the money a bank lends you.  You can be a ******* and squander it on something like a car or a swimming pool.  Or, you can be smart and make that money work for you.

That's fine. This is for business though. I am talking about personal lifestyles. Families take out mortgages to live and loans to drive cars. They don't profit off of that. They just sacrifice 30 years of the life to pay off crap, then die. 

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 2:47 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 2:47 pm

That's fine. This is for business though. I am talking about personal lifestyles. Families take out mortgages to live and loans to drive cars. They don't profit off of that. They just sacrifice 30 years of the life to pay off crap, then die.

As for cars, I completely agree with you.  But, not on houses.  The beginning of accumulating any amount of wealth begins with owning/financing a house.  First, don't finance it over 30 years.  Do a 15 year loan and make sure you can afford the higher payments.  Because, as you accumulate equity in a home, that becomes a device to use to obtain a mortgage-free home, or perhaps a business loans when the right opportunity presents.

These are the lessons kids and young adults are not being taught today.  There is a multi-step process to move yourself forward toward financial independence. It takes forethought, planning, concentration and patience.  It involves not only building wealth incrementally, but building relationships with those who will believe in your ability to turn a profit. That means partners, banks, even parents.  It takes a mindset that says "how can I make my partners money while I make money too", as opposed to "F- anyone who wants to make money off my hard work".

 
 

Skans » 24 Jan 2024, 3:08 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 3:08 pm

As for cars, I completely agree with you.  But, not on houses.  The beginning of accumulating any amount of wealth begins with owning/financing a house.  First, don't finance it over 30 years.  Do a 15 year loan and make sure you can afford the higher payments.  Because, as you accumulate equity in home, that becomes a device to use to obtain business loans when the right opportunity presents.

These are the lessons kids and young adults are not being taught today.  There is a multi-step process to move yourself forward toward financial independence. It takes forethought, planning, concentration and patience.  It involves not only building wealthy incrementally, but building relationships with those who will believe in your ability to turn a profit. That means partners, banks, even parents.  It takes a mindset that says "how can I make my partners money while I make money too", as opposed to "F- anyone who wants to make money off my hard work".

But my idea is to have them build their own house with provided materials and blueprints. No mortgage. They can invest in other things that would accumulate wealth because they have the money to invest. However, starting families out with debt before they even begin is counter productive. They pay off a home in 15 or 30 years. Ok? That is 15 to 30 years of time and money that could have been invested in other things. 

I get not wanting to be in debt. I would rather finance an already built home at a modest price and then do the improvements on my own. Building it from the ground up.. not sure I trust myself that much.

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 3:11 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 3:11 pm

But my idea is to have them build their own house with provided materials and blueprints. No mortgage. They can invest in other things that would accumulate wealth because they have the money to invest. However, starting families out with debt before they even begin is counter productive. They pay off a home in 15 or 30 years. Ok? That is 15 to 30 years of time and money that could have been invested in other things.

Ok, let's look at this:

• Provided materials - Concrete, lumber, hardware, tyvek, wiring, pipes, panels, insulation, roofing, etc, and let's not forget tools for a one-off house build.  How much is all that going to cost?  Where is the money coming from to pay for it?
• Land - where is this coming from?  How much is this going to cost?  Where is that money coming from.
• Skill-set.  How long will it take me to learn how to build a 1,500 sf house from start to finish? How and I going to learn all of these skills?
• Time.  How long will it actually take me to build the house?  How do I live and where do I live until I have a fully functional house?
• Labor - how much additional labor will I need to help me build the house?  And, what will this cost?

So, as I see it, I can dedicate my years between 16 and 25 learning to construct houses, and accumulating land and materials to build my house. What do I give up?

• College education
• higher earning job
• mobility
• learning skills other than construction skills
• mobility

Now, maybe I just love construction and I have a dad who is a general contractor who will take me under his wing and teach me all of this.  And, maybe my dad will lend me the money for land, labor and materials, instead of buying me a fancy college education.  Once I've completed my own house, I can make money with the skill set I've acquired building houses for others. 

Hey, THAT WORKS!!  However, it still requires acquired skill-set, financial backer/loan of some sort, education, long-term goals, determination, and time.  The kid will be a "slave" to this project.  Perhaps paying for it in different ways, but still paying for it with TIME, LABOR, and FINANCING (unless dad is just going to give him the tools, materials, land, etc. )
 

Skans » 24 Jan 2024, 3:34 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 3:34 pm

Ok, let's look at this:

• Provided materials - Concrete, lumber, hardware, tyvek, wiring, pipes, panels, insulation, roofing, etc, and let's not forget tools for a one-off house build.  How much is all that going to cost?  Where is the money coming from to pay for it?
• Land - where is this coming from?  How much is this going to cost?  Where is that money coming from.
• Skill-set.  How long will it take me to learn how to build a 1,500 sf house from start to finish? How and I going to learn all of these skills?
• Time.  How long will it actually take me to build the house?  How do I live and where do I live until I have a fully functional house?
• Labor - how much additional labor will I need to help me build the house?  And, what will this cost?

So, as I see it, I can dedicate my years between 16 and 25 learning to construct houses, and accumulating land and materials to build my house. What do I give up?

• College education
• higher earning job
• mobility
• learning skills other than construction skills
• mobility

Now, maybe I just love construction and I have a dad who is a general contractor who will take me under his wing and teach me all of this.  And, maybe my dad will lend me the money for land, labor and materials, instead of buying me a fancy college education.  Once I've completed my own house, I can make money with the skill set I've acquired building houses for others. 

Hey, THAT WORKS!!  However, it still requires acquired skill-set, financial backer/loan of some sort, education, long-term goals, determination, and time.  The kid will be a "slave" to this project.  Perhaps paying for it in different ways, but still paying for it with TIME, LABOR, and FINANCING (unless dad is just going to give him the tools, materials, land, etc. )

I know it isn't perfect and I haven't ironed out the details. So if you are looking for a detailed business plan with every i dotted and every t crossed, well sorry. I don't have that. However, I do know that it can be done if enough brainstorming and intelligent minds are focused on it, then it would succeed. 

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 3:36 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 3:36 pm

I know it isn't perfect and I haven't ironed out the details. So if you are looking for a detailed business plan with every i dotted and every t crossed, well sorry. I don't have that. However, I do know that it can be done if enough brainstorming and intelligent minds are focused on it, then it would succeed.

Hey, I give you credit!  I say it can work, but it requires a dad with resources and a construction background and a son who really really wants to go into the construction business. But, it could work.
 

Skans » 24 Jan 2024, 4:02 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 4:02 pm

Hey, I give you credit!  I say it can work, but it requires a dad with resources and a construction background and a son who really really wants to go into the construction business. But, it could work.

Technology advances. With advancement, comes more affordability. There was a time when computers were only for big businesses, due to the enormous cost. As tech advanced, almost everyone has one. Maybe there are materials that can replace the conventional ones and are just as good, but more affordable. These are questions I would research to answer. 

impartialobserver » 24 Jan 2024, 3:25 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 3:25 pm

I get not wanting to be in debt. I would rather finance an already built home at a modest price and then do the improvements on my own. Building it from the ground up.. not sure I trust myself that much.

You would be surprised of what one can do with appropriate training. I think the business should offer training, not just tutorials and blueprints. 

Vegas » 24 Jan 2024, 4:06 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 4:06 pm

Technology advances. With advancement, comes more affordability. There was a time when computers were only for big businesses, due to the enormous cost. As tech advanced, almost everyone has one. Maybe there are materials that can replace the conventional ones and are just as good, but more affordable. These are questions I would research to answer.

House made out of plastic bottles?


 

Skans » 24 Jan 2024, 4:12 pm » wrote: ↑

24 Jan 2024, 4:12 pm

House made out of plastic bottles?

I have seen that. It's worth looking into. It also depends on the climate of the region. I have seen wooden crates from grocery stores being used for the wood. Cheap as hell. There is also aluminum that can be used from recycled structures.