Liberal Forum

Cannonpointer » 02 Apr 2024, 8:38 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 8:38 pm

It took me many years to arrive at that conclusion. And many months to be comfortable with it.

The funny thing is, it was big sky - of all people - who read what I said about capitalism vs. free enterprise and concluded that we should outlaw it and put wall street under glass. When he said it, I was like.. yeah! And the more I thought about it, the less I could argue against the idea of simply outlawing capitalism in favor of free enterprise.

  I bought a $90 knife because Bigsky said any man without a Becker BK knife is a ******  
I have beat that knife into the ground and its still going strong.

Upon reflection I always come back to see Capitalism is a predatory system for the
elites to manipulate.  I like how you divide free enterprise from Capitalism.  
 

Sumela » 02 Apr 2024, 8:56 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 8:56 pm

  I bought a $90 knife because Bigsky said any man without a Becker BK knife is a ******  
I have beat that knife into the ground and its still going strong.

Upon reflection I always come back to see Capitalism is a predatory system for the
elites to manipulate.  I like how you divide free enterprise from Capitalism.

That was what took some chewing. I haven't seen anyone else do that. But it is clear as day, once you start comparing and contrasting the two entirely different economic systems. 

They did a fine job of collapsing them. It has most people hopelessly befuddled. To most, attacking one is attacking both - even though they are in truth opposites, enemies, and in perpetual competition. 
 

Cannonpointer » 02 Apr 2024, 9:05 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 9:05 pm

That was what took some chewing. I haven't seen anyone else do that. But it is clear as day, once you start comparing and contrasting the two entirely different economic systems. 

They did a fine job of collapsing them. It has most people hopelessly befuddled. To most, attacking one is attacking both - even though they are in truth opposites, enemies, and in perpetual competition.

There have been a few things here at NHB and some other places that made me curious enough to rethink and educate myself a little better.
For example: racism, Jews and holocaust, patriotism.

So, with all the seriousness a layman can muster, I have a question.
What is a fundamental difference you found to chew on?

Also, strong objections to Hamilton's move to create a US Bank adds to skepticism.
I have always heard the world has never seen "pure" communism or "pure" socialism or "pure" capitalism.
What would protect it so that "pure" free enterprise could finally exist?

Seems like mankind would **** that one up too.

As always, I welcome your views.

Cannonpointer » 02 Apr 2024, 8:38 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 8:38 pm

It took me many years to arrive at that conclusion. And many months to be comfortable with it.

The funny thing is, it was big sky - of all people - who read what I said about capitalism vs. free enterprise and concluded that we should outlaw it and put wall street under glass. When he said it, I was like.. yeah! And the more I thought about it, the less I could argue against the idea of simply outlawing capitalism in favor of free enterprise.

Ok fine, but FIRST I need to do a bit of “rent seeking” and “speculative profiteering” of my own.

then once I make out like a bandit, you can outlaw whatever you want.   

 

DeezerShoove » 02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm

There have been a few things here at NHB and some other places that made me curious enough to rethink and educate myself a little better.
For example: racism, Jews and holocaust, patriotism.

So, with all the seriousness a layman can muster, I have a question.
What is a fundamental difference you found to chew on?

Also, strong objections to Hamilton's move to create a US Bank adds to skepticism.
I have always heard the world has never seen "pure" communism or "pure" socialism or "pure" capitalism.
What would protect it so that "pure" free enterprise could finally exist?

Seems like mankind would **** that one up too.

As always, I welcome your views.

“Pure” free enterprise will eventually be corrupted. Just like everything in life - “everything turns to **** eventually.”

As for the delineation / fundamental difference, I have never seen CP define it precisely, which is not his fault because there are thousands of possible points of contention.

It’s like that adage: “I know it when I see it.”

When an investor with < 5M NW buys a small property and rents it out, it’s “FE”

When (((BlackRock))) buys up hundreds of thousands of properties using Fed funny money, it’s “capitalism”

The people who started Toys ‘R Us are “FE”ers

The private equity group that raided and then looted Toys ‘R Us and declared bankruptcy are “capitalists” (PE might be the best example of “capitalism”)

Anyway, I think it can be summarized per…”Free enterprise is something I like, and capitalism is something I don’t like”…



 

DeezerShoove » 02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm

What is a fundamental difference you found to chew on?

One is that free enterprise can never be extinguished. Even outlawed, it continues sub rosa. Another is free enterprise naturally arises where 2 or more gather, as it's a function of being human: I'll mow your lawn for 20 bucks.

CAPITALISM can easily be outlawed. It cannot exist without government, as it relies for investment capital on government creating and policing trading boards. It is government that gives capitalism its existence and nurtures it through the tax code. Retirement investments are tax deferred if you invest in wall street - but it takes after-tax dollars to invest in free enterprise.

DeezerShoove » 02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm

What would protect it so that "pure" free enterprise could finally exist?

Free enterprise exists universally and always will, where 2 or more gather. Selling a massage is free enterprise. Providing tree service is. Capitalism uses government to get favorable access to credit and to create barriers to markets, using public safety and other excuses as their shield.

No UL stamp, no ability to sell your solar panels. The government requires that stamp but does not provide it, forcing you to spend a fortune with a favored capitalist concern - which is illegal but universal. It costs 200 bucks in material to construct a solar panel and a day to put it together. But a guy who can afford the parts to build solar panels will have to get past the gate keepers - and it can be very expensive for those not in favor.

In the states that legalize weed, ANY CITIZEN has the right to grow and sell marijuana. Just have a place to grow it, and get a license - which means filing a million dollar bond, and proving the ability to do it at scale from day one. The entire system is built to protect capital and to bar entry to the market.

This aim of creating bars to the market is taken to extremes - like forcing a new restaurant that is delivery-only to have a handicapped restroom, even though no one who needs such could possibly work in such a restaurant. Barring entry is a full time job for many government departments.

There's also an absolute rule that the working class must be barred from rising by being pennied and nickeled to death. This is seen especially in excise taxes. Pipe tobacco is hardly taxed at all, whereas cigarette tobacco is subjected to onerous federal, state and local taxes. The excise tax paid on a high dollar bottle of liquor is the same as that paid on a can of beer. At every level,  the code is geared to hit the working man and bypass the wealthy..

Governments and capitalists work hand in glove to put the burdens of government on those it least serves and to create bars against their betterment. Those who receive the greatest favors and services from government contribute the least to its operations - while the rentiers control appearances through think-tanks that generate and promulgate 24/7 propaganda narratives.

An example is the widely touted claim that the top 10% pay the most in taxes. The federal income tax is only one of HUNDREDS of taxes put on consumers. "Federal taxes" excludes the 14% taken OFF THE TOP for SS before workers even start to pay "federal taxes." The capitalist class is rarely even AMONG that top 10%, as their monies are adjusted to zero through made-to-order loopholes. The disproportionate share lands on the professional class - NOT the capitalist class.

Capitalism has turned the US into a country where the working man is under-served, over-taxed, and barred from rising unless he is an absolutely driven, inexhaustible, extremely lucky, and perspicacious fellow. And it has highly-contributing professionals, who studied and prepared and sacrificed, struggling to maintain a middle class lifestyle unless both partners work.

 
 

DeezerShoove » 02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 10:08 pm

T

Also, strong objections to Hamilton's move to create a US Bank adds to skepticism.
I have always heard the world has never seen "pure" communism or "pure" socialism or "pure" capitalism.
What would protect it so that "pure" free enterprise could finally exist?

Seems like mankind would **** that one up too.

As always, I welcome your views.

Id like to offer some of my own thoughts on this subject...

Obviously no system is perfect but you actually can create an environment that fosters behavior that i think is generally good versus generally bad.

For example...a debt based economy like the one the usa currently uses is great for basically looting a country of all of its wealth before you abandon it and just let all the citizens fall into despair and desperation. The vast majority of people actually making money in the usa are just making it from random digits in some computer in wall street...not from producing any tangible good that is useful for any citizen. China is doing most of that for us.

And the sort of environment that finance thrives in happens to be the opposite of manufacturing. Finance likes high interest rates and low prices for goods...manufacturing likes low interest rates and high prices for goods. It is a zero sum game...there is no way for an economy to cater to both.

the rot in the usa actually goes back to its very origins. We adopted a constitution, for example, which was not actually the FIRST constitution...and in fact it differed from the magna Carta in one very key aspect: it removed the promise that people could not inherent debt from their parents (the magna Carta specifically named jews you could not inheret debt to). This removal and the subsequent debt crises is in fact the reason behind Daniel Shays rebellion...the first serious rebellion ever in the United States and an actual insurrection where people armed with guns went to a capitol and halted official government business (interesting to remind ourselves of all the people who insisted that jan 6th was the worst 'insurrection' in us history).

In contrast, Hitler's germany decided to try the radical opposite approach. They eliminated as much as possible all ways of making money that did not involve some form of useful work. They got rid of the stock market, for example. They outlawed land speculation and war profiteering. They seized control of the central bank and disconnected it from international banking...so that it would only serve what was in the interest of germans instead of internationalist elites who made fortunes from usury. If there weren't enough jobs for every able bodied citizen, the government made work that would be useful...such as infrastructure expansion.

Germany quickly became the most powerful econony in the world under such a system, and their workers had the best working conditions and quality of life.

Is it any wonder that the usa and uk quickly decided that Germany must be destroyed? Is it any wonder that germans were so loyal to Hitler? Or that the post war 'denazification' program had to be so extensive and so brutal?

Anyway...those 2 extremes basically represent different models of what behavior to incentivize by using (or limiting) state power. Nothing is ever 'perfect', of course...but the fact their societies were different is indisputable. And which one is better just depends on your values. Do you like to exploit people or do you like to inspire them?
 
 

Beakman » 02 Apr 2024, 8:06 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 8:06 pm

That's nothing! I spent weeks in Vulgaria with COMMIES shooting lazer pointers at my beak trying to destroy it! :wah:   :wah:   :wah:  They thought I was a damn JEW! :cry:   :cry:   :cry:  

 
 

Bird brain idealists flock around a single ideology minding possibilities life is more than self evidently genetically uniquely timed apart adapting to the moment here.

the major flaw in that behavior is, it corrupts every generation gap present.

CP
Low IQ
FOS

Thanks for some thoughtful insight.

As I see it, my "spideysense" has been tingling for a reason over the last 20 years.
There was a time when I thought it was an illogical shame to have established protocols for displaying and proper, respectful ways to discard our country's flag...
Only to rule that it's free speech to trample and burn it in our very streets.

I know that's off-topic, but to me it dovetails with the dubious "social engineering" aspect of our government's intrusive involvement:
You can do this, BUT it better be under what we deem proper conditions.

Like murdering babies. We either care or we don't, right?
Unviable tissue mass while driving to the abortion clinic unless the same broad gets shot in a bank robbery on the way.
NOW it's a double homicide...

It's gotten so schizophrenic my natural skepticism has begun to turn into downright apathy.

You conspiracy nuts and unAmerican bastards may have a point or two...   
 

**** me, you know how much drool I had to wade through to find some posts worth reading?

Excellent posts!!!

LowIQTrash » 02 Apr 2024, 9:23 am » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 9:23 am

So why do Canadians keep voting for him?

 For now, let’s assume that, if voter fraud in Canada is minimal (or isn’t great enough to impact the outcome), then the only sensible conclusion is that Canadians want to “destroy their own middle class” and push “HC to the brink of collapse.”

They overwhelmingly voted for him in 2015 merely because he was legalizing pot and the pot industry  while also promising a bright future of prosperity for all Canadian's.....
Now let me give you some perspective .....
No Voters knew back then that Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland were foreign agents of a foreign agenda that wanted to use Canada as a testing ground for The WEF's great reset agenda....
Trudeau and The Liberal government didn't tell Canadians that WEF advisors like McKinsey and company and BlackRock were in charge of drastically changing Canada by adopting WEF/UN Climate policies and initiatives ......
Hell, Most Canadian's didn't even know that The WEF existed never mind having a far reaching global agenda .....
And from 2015 to 2018 Trudeau started to take control of Canada's 2 largest mainstream News Organizations The CBC and  CTV which started promoting WEF DEI and Climate Propaganda while slso starting to label all political opposition to Trudeau's Agenda as being Deplorable conspiracy theorists ...
Then in 2019 he won his second term  as a minority government with 31% of the vote and needed the NDP which is pretty much the far left liberal party here in Canada to help prop them up in Parliament and they did .....forming a parliamentary liberal/leftist dictatorship....
While also continually backing their million a year Migration policy which started in 2015....
and in 2021 during the height of the pandemic Trudeau called an early election where he only won 29% of the vote while the NDP won 23%  and agreed to keep proping them up for concessions .....and 2 days later ....called all Canadian's in opposition to his dictatorship a small fringe minority with unacceptable views .....going full blown dictatorship on his opposition.
which lead to the trucker protest in Ottawa .....which lead to fullblown censorship and propaganda campaigns that were meant to brainwash Canadian's. ....
and it worked for a little while ....
but now The Conservative party in Canada has 20 point lead on every party because Canadians have woken up to the scam .....and the assault on the middle class.




 

Cannonpointer » 02 Apr 2024, 8:09 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 8:09 pm

Yes, he is in league with those bent on Canada's destruction.

The same "those" currently trying to destroy the U.S. an Europe .....

 

Majik » 03 Apr 2024, 10:48 am » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 10:48 am

They overwhelmingly voted for him in 2015 merely because he was legalizing pot and the pot industry  while also promising a bright future of prosperity for all Canadian's.....
Now let me give you some perspective .....
No Voters knew back then that Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland were foreign agents of a foreign agenda that wanted to use Canada as a testing ground for The WEF's great reset agenda....
Trudeau and The Liberal government didn't tell Canadians that WEF advisors like McKinsey and company and BlackRock were in charge of drastically changing Canada by adopting WEF/UN Climate policies and initiatives ......
Hell, Most Canadian's didn't even know that The WEF existed never mind having a far reaching global agenda .....
And from 2015 to 2018 Trudeau started to take control of Canada's 2 largest mainstream News Organizations The CBC and  CTV which started promoting WEF DEI and Climate Propaganda while slso starting to label all political opposition to Trudeau's Agenda as being Deplorable conspiracy theorists ...
Then in 2019 he won his second term  as a minority government with 31% of the vote and needed the NDP which is pretty much the far left liberal party here in Canada to help prop them up in Parliament and they did .....forming a parliamentary liberal/leftist dictatorship....
While also continually backing their million a year Migration policy which started in 2015....
and in 2021 during the height of the pandemic Trudeau called an early election where he only won 29% of the vote while the NDP won 23%  and agreed to keep proping them up for concessions .....and 2 days later ....called all Canadian's in opposition to his dictatorship a small fringe minority with unacceptable views .....going full blown dictatorship on his opposition.
which lead to the trucker protest in Ottawa .....which lead to fullblown censorship and propaganda campaigns that were meant to brainwash Canadian's. ....
and it worked for a little while ....
but now The Conservative party in Canada has 20 point lead on every party because Canadians have woken up to the scam .....and the assault on the middle class.

Well that took longer than expected…to wake up I mean…

Sorry, but unless Conservatives deport 90% of non-whites (citizens or not doesn’t matter) and bar (((them))) from positions in academia, government, media, and finance - which they assuredly will not - then it’s over.

Voting Conservative is rearranging the chairs on the Titanic…go ahead and do it to stop the carnage but don’t pretend your problems will go away. 

Also build more houses and tax land to sharply dampen RE speculation, so native White Canadians can have kids…:  
 

LowIQTrash » 03 Apr 2024, 11:05 am » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 11:05 am

Well that took longer than expected…to wake up I mean…

Sorry, but unless Conservatives deport 90% of non-whites (citizens or not doesn’t matter) and bar (((them))) from positions in academia, government, media, and finance - which they assuredly will not - then it’s over.

Voting Conservative is rearranging the chairs on the Titanic…go ahead and do it to stop the carnage but don’t pretend your problems will go away. 

Also build more houses and tax land to sharply dampen RE speculation, so native White Canadians can have kids…:

I hold no illusions ...
the only way to reverse this **** now is by force.
 

Majik » 03 Apr 2024, 12:04 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 12:04 pm

I hold no illusions ...
the only way to reverse this **** now is by force.
 

That is an inaccurate assessment. Choice corrupted this species throughout history, choices can correct it before extinction arrives. Natural balancing universe fixes itself without intellectual speculation anything else is possible.

31stArrival » 03 Apr 2024, 3:57 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 3:57 pm

That is an inaccurate assessment. Choice corrupted this species throughout history, choices can correct it before extinction arrives. Natural balancing universe fixes itself without intellectual speculation anything else is possible.

Just thinking and not reacting is as old as the primordial ooze....
 

Majik » 03 Apr 2024, 8:53 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 8:53 pm

Just thinking and not reacting is as old as the primordial ooze....
 

Why won't you accept thinking is reacting to evolving into a never duplicated situation twice adapting to a common time everything is equally inhabiting space changing form since conceived to replace one's previous ancestry/people involved with changing population left alive now?

Every human reality is about controlling outcomes of what is left incoming replacements following a standardized means to pretend life isn't self evidently evolving now. It is the original intellectual sin of a species intentionally fooling itself by itself.

It has always been this simple and everything navigates time adapting in its original outcome since coming into existing so far. "Self Evident results.".

"It is what it is.". Not everything is possible for anything existing as a cycle of life in circle logic from a common point of adapting as displaced in one's unique time adapting as displaced replacing their previous generation gaps in specific order of numbers occupying time now.

Theories and theologies always protect doubt, promises, secrets, need to know, insubordination, treason, blasphemy, social consensus, intellectual governance over instinctive awareness of proportionately here navigating space at the same time.

Uniqueness is equally alive, rank gets privileges the governed cannot obtain by social rule of law, regulations to commanding people demanding equal rights to practice self deception cradle to grave for the life cycles existing conceived to decomposed.

Intellectual minds invent missing links factually projecting ideas living exceeds the moment here evolving never exceeded once.

Biblical, historical, ancestral, current events. 5 basic genetic forms in one species with 5 generation gaps co-existing as reproductively here. life exists in a constantly changing total sum results left or not living anymore.

Extinction is a natural event when a 6th generation gap isn't added again from point of origin developing 16 great great grandparents, 2nd generation of 8 great grandparents, 3rd generation of 4 grandparents, 4th generation of 2 parenting, each great great grandchild becoming one of 2 parents or not.

The natural current situation. T.N.C.S.

Universally present as specific as taking place now. Like it or not doesn't change anything, never staying same details twice functioning the same way constantly here, anywhere universally positioned now.

Own, Won, NOW since time is something that begins in combinations achieved and ends either eroded or decomposed. Expanding details come from contracting results.

Genetics show that in series parallel timing of what is going forward here. Choices made, promises kept, self deception governing tomorrows today. Oops secret codes of intellectual means to absolute power of suggestion has absolutely corrupted every great great grandchild added to this species in plain sight.

Cannonpointer » 03 Apr 2024, 1:17 am » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 1:17 am

Capitalism has turned the US into a country where the working man is under-served, over-taxed, and barred from rising unless he is an absolutely driven, inexhaustible, extremely lucky, and perspicacious fellow. And it has highly-contributing professionals, who studied and prepared and sacrificed, struggling to maintain a middle class lifestyle unless both partners work.

Sorry, sir...I can only do one of those: being extremely lucky.    I pray to the Lord every day for good tidings...

Can I still get my ticket aboard the "Escape debt and corporate wage slavery?"    

I hear Seats are SEVERELY limited...I'll even hitch a ride in the hull if necessary...
 

FOS » 03 Apr 2024, 3:17 am » wrote: ↑

03 Apr 2024, 3:17 am

Id like to offer some of my own thoughts on this subject...

Obviously no system is perfect but you actually can create an environment that fosters behavior that i think is generally good versus generally bad.

For example...a debt based economy like the one the usa currently uses is great for basically looting a country of all of its wealth before you abandon it and just let all the citizens fall into despair and desperation. The vast majority of people actually making money in the usa are just making it from random digits in some computer in wall street...not from producing any tangible good that is useful for any citizen. China is doing most of that for us.

Yep. All that debt is just used to buy up productive assets (real estate, businesses via mergers/acquisitions, stocks / stock buybacks done by the corporation, bonds, commodities including gold/silver, Bitcoin, and a couple other asset classes I can't be arsed to remember) and to loot the real economy. 

Then what these vultures do is strip the asset (if there is a real underlying component) to the barebones. In corporate speak sometimes they call it "deferred maintenance." If you talk with any employee who isn't unionized today, they will VERY LIKELY tell you that they are doing the jobs of 2 or 3 people as a result of "cost cutting measures." This is in contrast with full employment targets of National Socialism (and even Marxism).

And conservative retards think these predatory types are "smart"...when they are just money obsessed sociopaths.

Mefobills, who is also a National Socialist, noted a term that the ancient Greeks used - I forgot what it was called (phallurgia?) where no amount of money (silver back then) would satiate their desires. They will do whatever they can to cheat, lie, and basically strongarm their way to hoarding silver.

Even back in ancient times, predatory characteristic individuals needed to be restrained and suppressed for the common good.

Anyway, that is a great post. Sadly as you said you have a much easier time converting Marxists and radical economic leftists than conservatives
 

LowIQTrash » 02 Apr 2024, 11:08 pm » wrote: ↑

02 Apr 2024, 11:08 pm

“Pure” free enterprise will eventually be corrupted. Just like everything in life - “everything turns to **** eventually.”

As for the delineation / fundamental difference, I have never seen CP define it precisely, which is not his fault because there are thousands of possible points of contention.

It’s like that adage: “I know it when I see it.”

When an investor with < 5M NW buys a small property and rents it out, it’s “FE”

When (((BlackRock))) buys up hundreds of thousands of properties using Fed funny money, it’s “capitalism”

The people who started Toys ‘R Us are “FE”ers

The private equity group that raided and then looted Toys ‘R Us and declared bankruptcy are “capitalists” (PE might be the best example of “capitalism”)

Anyway, I think it can be summarized per…”Free enterprise is something I like, and capitalism is something I don’t like”…

Actually, free enterprise can only be attacked  never subverted. It operates without government force - unlike comnism or cappulism or fashism. 

No need for government means no corrupting force. It's just people interacting voluntarily. PEOPLE will be corrupt, will cheat, will violate laws, etc. But FREE ENTERPRISE is incorruptible.