Liberal Forum

Blackvegetable » 25 Jul 2024, 8:22 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 8:22 pm

170 years after Marx, Vegas figures out that workers don't earn the full value of their labor and that you can't spell capitalism without "capital".

There are 4 broadly recognized factors of production of which labor is only 1. As a Level 0.27 imbecile. @*VegasVagina assumes the other 3 factors contribute for **** and giggles.

But the main thing is you do what capital tells you to do. 

How to vote if you know whats good for you. 
 

You know that degree you spent four years getting.

Trying again capital doesn't need you for that

Go another 250,000 in debt and learn this.

Bidencrimefamily » 25 Jul 2024, 8:33 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 8:33 pm

You know that degree you spent four years getting.

Trying again capital doesn't need you for that

Go another 250,000 in debt and learn this.

Let's hope that job is still around by time you get that done. 

Or you will have to do it again. Sorry. 
 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm

Hopefully someone else can get the crayons out for @Blackvegetable  . There is no way he will have the intellectual capacity to understand this. It's also longer than 5 words, so we know he isn't going to read it anyway. 

I hear a lot from the die hard Republicans and conservatives that in capitalism, we have choice. It provides a mutually beneficial contract between the employer and employee. Incorrect. It is inherently built to only benefit the employer while the employee gets ripped off. Here is why:

To keep it simple, let's just use an easy number. Let's say an employer buys something for $1.00 and he wants to turn it around and sell it for a profit. He obviously isn't going to sell it for less than a dollar, nor is he going to sell it for exactly a dollar. He must sell it for more than what he paid. This is no different with labor. If an employer pays an employee $15 an hour in exchange for the employee's time and labor, then for that employer, the employee must in return produce an output that is worth more than $15/hr. Maybe the employer wants $20/hr worth of output. If an employee doesn't not produce a value worth more than what they are paid, then the employer is cutting a loss. 

Therefore, in a capitalist society, there is no such thing as paying someone what they are worth. The system is inherently built to pay the employee less than what they are worth, as to not risk breaking even or losing money.

As long as you know who owns the government everything. Just stay in line. The alternative is not pretty. 

Blackvegetable » 25 Jul 2024, 8:22 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 8:22 pm

There are 4 broadly recognized factors of production of which labor is only 1. As a Level 0.27 imbecile. @*VegasVagina assumes the other 3 factors contribute for **** and giggles.

Vegheads idea of level 2+   

FOS » 25 Jul 2024, 7:48 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:48 pm

Intrinsically, 15$ is worth nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

nobody, in fact, owns anything at all. What people 'own' is a contract with law enforcement such that the police will pretend you own it, and are willing to use guns to enforce that attitude. That is the ONLY part of ownership that is not an illusion. Your country has a military to defend what it 'owns'...money or ability to distribute currency etc etc...from some other country that might want to take it.

but again...police and militaries and all of these things only work because they are composed of people who respect the country and are willing to follow orders from their leader to kill people the leader wants them to kill. Without that critical aspect of the 'social contract'...all of this collapses. And 15$ really does become worth the money it is printed on...which is zero. Especially if someone with a gun decides they would rather have it instead of you.

People might forget the existence of all these middle things...but it is always present. Everything depends on people thinking that the state is legitimate...or at the very least dangerous.

Good post. I don't know what the best system would be that would benefit everybody accordingly and respectively. 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm

Good post. I don't know what the best system would be that would benefit everybody accordingly and respectively.

Don't worry if you vote alright you'll have a job. 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm

Good post. I don't know what the best system would be that would benefit everybody accordingly and respectively.

You just agreed with a national socialist 

Bidencrimefamily » 25 Jul 2024, 10:21 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 10:21 pm

Don't worry if you vote alright you'll have a job.

Looks like its back to square one;          From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs 

 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm

Hopefully someone else can get the crayons out for @Blackvegetable  . There is no way he will have the intellectual capacity to understand this. It's also longer than 5 words, so we know he isn't going to read it anyway. 

I hear a lot from the die hard Republicans and conservatives that in capitalism, we have choice. It provides a mutually beneficial contract between the employer and employee. Incorrect. It is inherently built to only benefit the employer while the employee gets ripped off. Here is why:

To keep it simple, let's just use an easy number. Let's say an employer buys something for $1.00 and he wants to turn it around and sell it for a profit. He obviously isn't going to sell it for less than a dollar, nor is he going to sell it for exactly a dollar. He must sell it for more than what he paid. This is no different with labor. If an employer pays an employee $15 an hour in exchange for the employee's time and labor, then for that employer, the employee must in return produce an output that is worth more than $15/hr. Maybe the employer wants $20/hr worth of output. If an employee doesn't not produce a value worth more than what they are paid, then the employer is cutting a loss. 

Therefore, in a capitalist society, there is no such thing as paying someone what they are worth. The system is inherently built to pay the employee less than what they are worth, as to not risk breaking even or losing money.

You have made a mistake, here. The capitalist - at least in theory - receives his portion of what the laborer produces for several reasons:
1. He has ventured his capital to provide the laborer with a job. I have worked for myself, and I have worked for others. I made more working for others - and never begrudged them the profits I strove my best at every turn to provide them.
2. The capitalist has organized a work space that makes the laborer more productive than he would be on his own - I know this from personal experience;
3. If the laborer could do better, he would not be working for the capitalist.

So you are wrong in your understanding of the relationship between labor and capital. 

In practice, the market has been designed to keep the laborer down artificially, for the profit of the capitalist.

FOR EXAMPLE: Anyone can grow and sell pot in states that have legalized weed - anyone. They only need a license to be legal. And the license only requires a multi-million dollar bond. 
Anyone can build and sell solar panels, investing only 200 bucks in materials and a day's labor per panel. They just need to start already at scale, because the government requires you to pay a wall street corporation for a UL stamp.
Anyone can start a restaurant. But start up costs are inflated deliberately to create a bar to the market, and any credit you need will be at far less favorable terms than a wall street corporation. 

Free enterprise is under assault by capitalism, which exists not to serve markets but to corner them. And the government is in bed with the capitalists. The government is their gun. 
 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:29 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:29 pm

State facts that have to do with the OP.  2 +2 = 4 is also a fact, but that has hardly anything to do with the OP. 

Dumb piece of ****.

Use the PG feature duh.
 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:35 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:35 pm

I agree with unions, but that doesn't change the inherent system. If capitalism is going to succeed, then the system demands for employees to be dishonestly used by paying them an undervalued wage. The unions can negotiate a better pay with better conditions, but at the end of the day, the employees cannot be paid their worth any more than one can profit off of breaking even.  If an employee is worth $15/hr and the employer pays them $15/hr, then the employer is breaking even.

This is incorrect thinking. You might as well argue that a rough diamond isn't made more valuable by the fellow who cuts and polishes it. 

The intelligent man can venture his capital in such a way that he can get value from a retard. For example, a restaurant might hire a retard to wash dishes - or a detail shop might arm a retard with cleaning supplies and have him detail customers' automobiles. The retard would be utterly hopeless without the organizing prowess and the capital investment of the businessman. The businessman has every right to make a profit on the labor of the fellow he employed. There is no injustice in that. 

The relationship only becomes unjust when coercion is involved - and in the US, the coercion is enforced by the government strictly limiting options. 
 
 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm

Good post. I don't know what the best system would be that would benefit everybody accordingly and respectively.

Free Enterprise.

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:35 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:35 pm

I agree with unions, but that doesn't change the inherent system. If capitalism is going to succeed, then the system demands for employees to be dishonestly used by paying them an undervalued wage. The unions can negotiate a better pay with better conditions, but at the end of the day, the employees cannot be paid their worth any more than one can profit off of breaking even.  If an employee is worth $15/hr and the employer pays them $15/hr, then the employer is breaking even.

Capitalism (however you wish to define the term) served its purpose by providing some kind of foundation for corporate expansion and domination. It's basically a way of allowing capital (people who own the investment monies) to do what they want with little to moderate interference by the state, and if the state does interfere it is often in THEIR (capitalists') favor, contrary to the myths about a 'free market.'

The basic idea was that money would flow to where it would receive the greatest return...and today that seems to be in rent-seeking paradises (Blackrock buying up houses, Nestle selling municipal water bottled up back to you for 10,000x markup, the banks frontrunning Treasuries, etc.)

@Cannonpointer  says that the growth in living standards since the 1800s is more due to technological, scientific, and industrial advancements rather than the system in place - as many people (esp libertarians and conservatives) credit these gains to capitalism.

Today, since avenues for organic growth have been exhausted, capitalism is basically just another grifter's paradise. Lots of scams, repackaging things and using "Creative advertising" (think about all the Internet and TV ads...hundreds of billions per year in the USA alone), J-U-U-Z printing da moolahs and then handing it out to themselves and their lackeys, and turning people and communities into individualistic / detached consumers. 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm

Hopefully someone else can get the crayons out for @Blackvegetable  . There is no way he will have the intellectual capacity to understand this. It's also longer than 5 words, so we know he isn't going to read it anyway. 

Do you understand the flaw in the universally constant between a talking point idea in conversation among population, a grammatic period of a sentence, a decimal point in mathematics, single event in series parallel time evolving spontaneously different outcomes simultaneously?

Topics are academic facts, artistic interpretation, economic value to population, social consensus family and community, political leanings to lead or follow power of suggestion or natural timing living as equally alive daily since rotation of birth until day one dies.

What is the missing link in every factual reality history recorded by one species creating its own ancestral manifested destinies seeking Divine Providence giving a person's intellect immortality beyond the time lived between rotation born and rotation died?

Capitalism is to economics as each ancestor evolving here now is to population left alive this rotation. anything less is deliberate ignoring of one's proportionate position adapting as displaced uniquely one of a kind as genetically here in one of 5 surviving generation gaps adapting to the moment one is never same results twice.

Missing link in every fact humanity uses in laws regulating social behavior cradle to grave is the time each reproduction has conceived to birth. That "ity" bit or rational logic at counting completions 1-10 before a decimal point followed by 0-9. 1.0 vs 1.9 is always less than 2.0.

A sentence isn't a paragraph. A paragraph isn't a page. a page isn't a chapter, a chapter isn't a book, a book isn't a complete volume of a lifetime's experience day in and day out for an ancestral lineage that has existed over 400 generation gaps of people amounting to 8 billion soles reproduced adapting in space today as numerically displaced in chronological order of 16, 8, 4, 2, 1, 50% 6th generation, 25% 7th generation, 12.5% 8th generation, 6.25% 9th generation gap of great great grandchild becoming 1 of 16 great great grandparents.> Chromosomes combined by rule of 72 in DNA every ancestor within the species has unique combinations never conceived twice inception to conception adapting until dead and extinction ends the arrival of each great great grandchild born daily as eternally separated in the history of humanity corrupting everyone alive today within their own ancestral lineages and generation gaps.

I understand self evident time being one of a kind equally here now. I am sick and tired of social consensus by persons leading self deception cradle to grave ignoring the 0-9 month stage of actually evolving as eternally separated now.

Bidencrimefamily » 25 Jul 2024, 7:27 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:27 pm

Capitalism is the best ever. 

Corporations are people to my friend. 
 

Blithering **** idiot

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 7:25 pm

Hopefully someone else can get the crayons out for @Blackvegetable  . There is no way he will have the intellectual capacity to understand this. It's also longer than 5 words, so we know he isn't going to read it anyway. 

I hear a lot from the die hard Republicans and conservatives that in capitalism, we have choice. It provides a mutually beneficial contract between the employer and employee. Incorrect. It is inherently built to only benefit the employer while the employee gets ripped off. Here is why:

To keep it simple, let's just use an easy number. Let's say an employer buys something for $1.00 and he wants to turn it around and sell it for a profit. He obviously isn't going to sell it for less than a dollar, nor is he going to sell it for exactly a dollar. He must sell it for more than what he paid. This is no different with labor. If an employer pays an employee $15 an hour in exchange for the employee's time and labor, then for that employer, the employee must in return produce an output that is worth more than $15/hr. Maybe the employer wants $20/hr worth of output. If an employee doesn't not produce a value worth more than what they are paid, then the employer is cutting a loss. 

Therefore, in a capitalist society, there is no such thing as paying someone what they are worth. The system is inherently built to pay the employee less than what they are worth, as to not risk breaking even or losing money.

Why does this **** keep posting crap like this?

No one cares what an ignoramus feels...
 

*Vegas » 25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm » wrote: ↑

25 Jul 2024, 9:59 pm

Good post. I don't know what the best system would be that would benefit everybody accordingly and respectively.

well of course imo the best system is national socialism. Because I think ultimately the most fundamental aspect of identity rests on having common ancestry. People care about their family more than other families, and this tribalism is universal and is the biological source of altruism. So if serving Germany becomes the same as serving the German people, people will be loyal and perform their duty happily...just as a parent performs their duty for their children.

If, instead, citizens in a government are supposed to share some abstraction, such as 'common principles' or even 'common religion' or some economic zone like 'we all use USD', then there becomes a separation between the people's intrinsic identity and the government. That is simply less stable as a society and it is lower in trust and altruism. 

FOS » 26 Jul 2024, 7:21 am » wrote: ↑

26 Jul 2024, 7:21 am

well of course imo the best system is national socialism. Because I think ultimately the most fundamental aspect of identity rests on having common ancestry. People care about their family more than other families, and this tribalism is universal and is the biological source of altruism. So if serving Germany becomes the same as serving the German people, people will be loyal and perform their duty happily...just as a parent performs their duty for their children.

If, instead, citizens in a government are supposed to share some abstraction, such as 'common principles' or even 'common religion' or some economic zone like 'we all use USD', then there becomes a separation between the people's intrinsic identity and the government. That is simply less stable as a society and it is lower in trust and altruism. 

What hypothetical hyperbole that never stops being performed every generation gap among the 5 left alive today.

Blackvegetable » 26 Jul 2024, 6:31 am » wrote: ↑

26 Jul 2024, 6:31 am

Why does this **** keep posting crap like this?

No one cares what an ignoramus feels...