Liberal Forum

I found this article in the Atlantic interesting for several reasons. First, it is about American culture itself. We bombard ourselves with violence and anger that has gone to the level of being desensitized to the reality of death. Now, more and more people are taking up arms and acting out their fatal fantasies. This is not simply a gun issue. It is a cultural issue where we never even second guess the media we consume for entertainment as a loathsome effect on our psyches. This used to be a question of political importance but it seems voices that condemned such notions have now gone deaf. With this culture at work, the anger and dark tendencies of human nature will probably rear their ugly head again and again to a point that such violence could become even more common.
The second note here is that it seems many people have given up hope in a better future. The decline of spiritual practices and the alienation of citizens and their government are both signs of this. Even masks are seen as an intrusive government on a public that has given up on civic engagement. The debate on Covid safety measures, of course, is one of democracy but the reasoning sometimes points to a complete rejection of the government in general. Nihilism or the complete rejection of meaning in life was the result of the secularization of American society in my opinion. This was mostly not the case at first when most rejection of organized religion still instilled spirituality in some sort of form. Now as time passes the world has become more bleak for many and the rejection of any sort of meaning in life is much more common. This is a proper analysis of the state of American society at this point in my opinion where we find ourselves looking in the mirror again with the latest mass killing. Link to Atlantic article here.
 

In short... lack of religion and spirituality makes someone feel hopeless and as if life has no point.... This is pure and utter propaganda.

impartialobserver » 31 May 2022, 7:12 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:12 pm

In short... lack of religion and spirituality makes someone feel hopeless and as if life has no point.... This is pure and utter propaganda.

As faith in God drops our society does seem to be  becoming more violent. Seems that way but the truth is we haven't topped the 1960s or 70s in terms of violence and we are only now approaching those levels again.  Doesn't seem to be a causal factor but it likely doesn't help. 
 
 

Neo » 31 May 2022, 7:19 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:19 pm

As faith in God drops our society does seem to be  becoming more violent. Seems that way but the truth is we haven't topped the 1960s or 70s in terms of violence and we are only now approaching those levels again.  Doesn't seem to be a causal factor but it likely doesn't help.

I have a hard time believing that lack of faith in God is the leading (or from your viewpoint.. the one and only) factor involved. 

impartialobserver » 31 May 2022, 7:22 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:22 pm

I have a hard time believing that lack of faith in God is the leading (or from your viewpoint.. the one and only) factor involved.

I don't believe it's a leading factor, perhaps not even causal. More of a barometer or a symptom of a decaying society. 
 

Neo » 31 May 2022, 7:24 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:24 pm

I don't believe it's a leading factor, perhaps not even causal. More of a barometer or a symptom of a decaying society.

I would place the internet/smart phones, ease of living, and greater economic fortunes as more influential than religion. The 3 listed affect all not just those who choose to be religious or not. 

impartialobserver » 31 May 2022, 7:22 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:22 pm

I have a hard time believing that lack of faith in God is the leading (or from your viewpoint.. the one and only) factor involved.

When I was  kid in school, we had prayer daily. Now, we don't.

And just look at us. Mass shootings, child predators, uppity ******.

I am convinced that every bit of this would end, if only we had our school children intone, "God is great, God is good; Let us thank Him for our food, amen" before they go to lunch. ,

Isn't it obvious? 
 

Cannonpointer » 31 May 2022, 7:28 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:28 pm

When I was  kid in school, we hd prayer daily. Now, we don't.

Ad just look t us. Mass shootings, child predtors, uppity ******.

I am convinced tht every bit of this would end, if only we had our school children intone, "God is great, God is good; Let us thank Him for our food, amen" before they go to lunch. ,

Isn't it obvious?

and that is the only way life has changed since then? 

impartialobserver » 31 May 2022, 7:26 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:26 pm

I would place the internet/smart phones, ease of living, and greater economic fortunes as more influential than religion. The 3 listed affect all not just those who choose to be religious or not.

True.


Another argument against irreligion being a significant factor in violence. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Finland

Pretty regularly rated the happiest people on earth, also some of the highest rates of agnosticism and atheism in the western world. 

impartialobserver » 31 May 2022, 7:28 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:28 pm

and that is the only way life has changed since then?

Well... There's the internet, where 11 year olds can watch Tijuana donkey sex shows.

Wait.

Okay. Give me a minute. 
 
 

Neo » 31 May 2022, 7:29 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:29 pm

True.

Another argument against irreligion being a significant factor in violence. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Finland

Pretty regularly rated the happiest people on earth, also some of the highest rates of agnosticism and atheism in the western world.

I grew up in the trailer park where violence should have been rampant. All of the ingredients were in place... poverty, drugs, alcohol, poor decision making. Yet, the only real violence was domestic disputes. What was the difference? First, when you left school... you left that world behind except for a few friends. Very few knew where i lived and no one knew that I was a closet audiophile. Social media and the ease of access breaks that barrier down. 

Monderegal » 31 May 2022, 11:13 am » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 11:13 am

I found this article in the Atlantic interesting for several reasons. First, it is about American culture itself. We bombard ourselves with violence and anger that has gone to the level of being desensitized to the reality of death. Now, more and more people are taking up arms and acting out their fatal fantasies. This is not simply a gun issue. It is a cultural issue where we never even second guess the media we consume for entertainment as a loathsome effect on our psyches. This used to be a question of political importance but it seems voices that condemned such notions have now gone deaf. With this culture at work, the anger and dark tendencies of human nature will probably rear their ugly head again and again to a point that such violence could become even more common.
The second note here is that it seems many people have given up hope in a better future. The decline of spiritual practices and the alienation of citizens and their government are both signs of this. Even masks are seen as an intrusive government on a public that has given up on civic engagement. The debate on Covid safety measures, of course, is one of democracy but the reasoning sometimes points to a complete rejection of the government in general. Nihilism or the complete rejection of meaning in life was the result of the secularization of American society in my opinion. This was mostly not the case at first when most rejection of organized religion still instilled spirituality in some sort of form. Now as time passes the world has become more bleak for many and the rejection of any sort of meaning in life is much more common. This is a proper analysis of the state of American society at this point in my opinion where we find ourselves looking in the mirror again with the latest mass killing. Link to Atlantic article here.

The one safe bet I could always count on was that tomorrow was likely - very likely - to look a lot like today.

On Y2K I lived in San Francisco, and I didn't have so much as an extra bottle of water stockpiled. I have never been one to panic - to believe in any of that "the end is near" ****,

Currently, I am at my bug-in, in the hills. I am sitting on a **** ton of staples and getting my chicken coop put together. I have my water and energy contingiencies coming together. I have no confidence whatsoever that tomorrow will look anything like today. I identify more with 20th century Kulaks than I do with the 21st  century urban slackers that I used to kick it with. 

"What changed," I asked rhetorically. Well, rhetorical me, I will answer that. What changed is that my government pulled the covid scam, and used it to unlwfully, fascistically pressure citizens into participating in drug trials which it knew were extremely dangerous to public health. In the aftermath, all-cause mortlity is up 25% - statistically, in line with an asteroid strike; far greater than the rise we would expect from a global war.

You ain't in Kansas anymore, Dot - that is the real answer to the OP's question, wha-happa?
 
 
 

So american culture sucks. It didn't used to. Why don't you take a guess what changed?

Cannonpointer » 31 May 2022, 7:40 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:40 pm

The one safe bet I could always count on was that tomorrow was likely - very likely - to look a lot like today.

On Y2K I lived in San Francisco, and I didn't have so much as an extra bottle of water stockpiled. I have never been one to panic - to believe in any of that "the end is near" ****,

Currently, I am at my bug-in, in the hills. I am sitting on a **** ton of staples and getting my chicken coop put together. I have my water and energy contingiencies coming together. I have no confidence whatsoever that tomorrow will look anything like today. I identify more with 20th century Kulaks than I do with the 21st  century urban slackers that I used to kick it with. 

"What changed," I asked rhetorically. Well, rhetorical me, I will answer that. What changed is that my government pulled the covid scam, and used it to unlwfully, fascistically pressure citizens into participating in drug trials which it knew were extremely dangerous to public health. In the aftermath, all-cause mortlity is up 25% - statistically, in line with an asteroid strike; far greater than the rise we would expect from a global war.

You ain't in Kansas anymore, Dot - that is the real answer to the OP's question, wha-happa?

I have a simpler answer. What changed is total Jewish dominance of all our institutions....which actually happened decades ago...but now we are getting the consequences of that. 

About 200 years ago a man named nietzche predicted the decline of Christianity ..which he considered to be inevitable and impossible to reverse even if we would want to. 

He also predicted that the resulting nihilism would make the 20th century the bloodiest century in human history. Which it was.

he predicted that there were 2 possibke outcomes for the loss of a serious religion (because sure...plenty of people still claim to have a religion but the vast majority of those people are not serious): the Uberman, who is able to find purpose in the thriving and advancement of his people (nazis for example)...and the last man who simply becomes apathetic and shallow about everything...the possibility of which horrified nietzsche the most. 

impartialobserver » 31 May 2022, 7:22 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:22 pm

I have a hard time believing that lack of faith in God is the leading (or from your viewpoint.. the one and only) factor involved.

Aspiring to a higher purpose and character improvement is beneficial.
"Doing the right thing when no one is looking" comes to mind.

If that seems difficult, for some a belief in God serves the purpose.
What's wrong with that?

---

Why would you feel the need to be a good person?
(This assumes you want that at all in the first place.)
If you do, what do you have that motivates this desire?

DeezerShoove » 31 May 2022, 9:37 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 9:37 pm

Aspiring to a higher purpose and character improvement is beneficial.
"Doing the right thing when no one is looking" comes to mind.

If that seems difficult, for some a belief in God serves the purpose.
What's wrong with that?

---

Why would you feel the need to be a good person?
(This assumes you want that at all in the first place.)
If you do, what do you have that motivates this desire?

All animals will show altruism to their own family. That is an evolved instinct.for obvious reasons. A lifeform that does not do this will go extinct. Religion isn't necessary. 

Now why have modern western countries become so narcissistic and amoral? Because we are not a family. Simple science. Just like a lion does not particularly care about the gazelle that it hunts down and eats..so Whites, Blacks, Mestizos, Orientals, etc do not particularly care about eachother. It is quite simply because of genetic difference. 

And it is well understood that in a society where many of the 'citizens' are in fact genetic rivals rather than part of your extended family...no person religious or not is going to feel compelled to do the right thing...especially if nobody is watching. 

FOS » 31 May 2022, 9:59 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 9:59 pm

All animals will show altruism to their own family. That is an evolved instinct.for obvious reasons. A lifeform that does not do this will go extinct. Religion isn't necessary. 

Now why have modern western countries become so narcissistic and amoral? Because we are not a family. Simple science. Just like a lion does not particularly care about the gazelle that it hunts down and eats..so Whites, Blacks, Mestizos, Orientals, etc do not particularly care about eachother. It is quite simply because of genetic difference. 

And it is well understood that in a society where many of the 'citizens' are in fact genetic rivals rather than part of your extended family...no person religious or not is going to feel compelled to do the right thing...especially if nobody is watching.

A very Ayn Rand expectation of the people at large.

I'm merely talking about a basic trait of being a "good person".
Not stealing, lending a hand, trying to not hold useless grudges, etc.

For some people, "knowing" God is watching is all it takes to NOT murder some asshole.
Growing a conscience is nurture not nature. Being a decent adult is taught. 
It may not be that God is the answer for all, but so what if it does the job for some people?

Family, to be sure is right in the mix. The main ingredient. Wish we all had one...

DeezerShoove » 31 May 2022, 10:15 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 10:15 pm

A very Ayn Rand expectation of the people at large.

I'm merely talking about a basic trait of being a "good person".
Not stealing, lending a hand, trying to not hold useless grudges, etc.

For some people, "knowing" God is watching is all it takes to NOT murder some asshole.
Growing a conscience is nurture not nature. Being a decent adult is taught. 
It may not be that God is the answer for all, but so what if it does the job for some people?

Family, to be sure is right in the mix. The main ingredient. Wish we all had one...

I have seen no evidence that religion causes people to behave better. I HAVE seen evidence that people are more charitable towards people more closely related to them genetically. 

In a wholesome community where everyone is religious, you will also note that they are all the same race. 

Once diversity happens that cohesion breaks down. Consistently. Like clockwork. The diversity doesn't cause people to be atheist...but it does turn then into assholes.

FOS » 31 May 2022, 7:45 pm » wrote: ↑

31 May 2022, 7:45 pm

So american culture sucks. It didn't used to. Why don't you take a guess what changed?