Liberal Forum

Plato came up with concepts called forms. He wanted to define certain concepts such as beauty, justice, mankind...etc... These forms are to be considered the ultimate standard that the concepts are to be measured against. If there is a better, then there is a best that should be defined. This best is what defines the concepts. However, unfortunately, he never could define these forms. They remain vague and abstract. For example, a man/woman is only a copy of the form mankind. So, a painting of a man/woman is a copy of a copy. 

This lays the groundwork for my thought experiment. We argue much about the existence of a God. Religion will say that mankind is made in the image of God (Plato's version of a copy.). However, mankind does not know exactly what this form is. Science says mother nature is the form, religion says God is the form, Narcissists like @Blackvegetable  says that he is the form...etc...

We are in a age of building humanoid robots that can think on their own. Their form would be us humans. We made them in our image. However, that leads to a question. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of? We use algorithms, electrons, and metal to dictate the behavior and thoughts of humanoid bots.

We are made up of DNA and cells that dictate our behavior and thoughts. We are unaware of this form to which we are copies of. Likewise, wouldn't AI bots be unaware of us?

In conclusion: Two questions: 

1. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of?
2. would AI bots be unaware of us?


Prediction
1. Veghead will say "you are a **** moron."

Vegas » 26 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm

Plato came up with concepts called forms. He wanted to define certain concepts such as beauty, justice, mankind...etc... These forms are to be considered the ultimate standard that the concepts are to be measured against. If there is a better, then there is a best that should be defined. This best is what defines the concepts. However, unfortunately, he never could define these forms. They remain vague and abstract. For example, a man/woman is only a copy of the form mankind. So, a painting of a man/woman is a copy of a copy. 

This lays the groundwork for my thought experiment. We argue much about the existence of a God. Religion will say that mankind is made in the image of God (Plato's version of a copy.). However, mankind does not know exactly what this form is. Science says mother nature is the form, religion says God is the form, Narcissists like @Blackvegetable  says that he is the form...etc...

We are in a age of building humanoid robots that can think on their own. Their form would be us humans. We made them in our image. However, that leads to a question. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of? We use algorithms, electrons, and metal to dictate the behavior and thoughts of humanoid bots.

We are made up of DNA and cells that dictate our behavior and thoughts. We are unaware of this form to which we are copies of. Likewise, wouldn't AI bots be unaware of us?

In conclusion: Two questions: 

1. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of?
2. would AI bots be unaware of us?

Prediction
1. Veghead will say "you are a **** moron."

I don't know about all that.  But Bv is the prototype for morons...and he's been programed to project.

Vegas » 26 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm

Plato came up with concepts called forms. He wanted to define certain concepts such as beauty, justice, mankind...etc... These forms are to be considered the ultimate standard that the concepts are to be measured against. If there is a better, then there is a best that should be defined. This best is what defines the concepts. However, unfortunately, he never could define these forms. They remain vague and abstract. For example, a man/woman is only a copy of the form mankind. So, a painting of a man/woman is a copy of a copy. 

This lays the groundwork for my thought experiment. We argue much about the existence of a God. Religion will say that mankind is made in the image of God (Plato's version of a copy.). However, mankind does not know exactly what this form is. Science says mother nature is the form, religion says God is the form, Narcissists like @Blackvegetable  says that he is the form...etc...

We are in a age of building humanoid robots that can think on their own. Their form would be us humans. We made them in our image. However, that leads to a question. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of? We use algorithms, electrons, and metal to dictate the behavior and thoughts of humanoid bots.

We are made up of DNA and cells that dictate our behavior and thoughts. We are unaware of this form to which we are copies of. Likewise, wouldn't AI bots be unaware of us?

In conclusion: Two questions: 

1. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of?
2. would AI bots be unaware of us?

Prediction
1. Veghead will say "you are a **** moron."

no...human beings are clearly a product of evolution. 

All of our behavior can easily be explained and predicted from the lens of reproductive fitness. 

Reproductive fitness of the TRIBE, mind you. Because that is all that actually matters from a macroscopic perspective. Yes individuals will sacrifice themselves..just like ants and bees will sacrifice themselves for the hive...but they do so in hopes of increasing the reproductive fitness of the tribe. 

Gene replication does not objectively benefit any entity we know of. Not even ourselves...since the desire to survive itself is simply a preference we happen to be programmed with. 

Considering these facts it is very difficult for me to imagine...even if we were created artificially...then by whom and to what end?

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 2:35 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 2:35 pm

no...human beings are clearly a product of evolution. 

All of our behavior can easily be explained and predicted from the lens of reproductive fitness. 

Reproductive fitness of the TRIBE, mind you. Because that is all that actually matters from a macroscopic perspective. Yes individuals will sacrifice themselves..just like ants and bees will sacrifice themselves for the hive...but they do so in hopes of increasing the reproductive fitness of the tribe. 

Gene replication does not objectively benefit any entity we know of. Not even ourselves...since the desire to survive itself is simply a preference we happen to be programmed with. 

Considering these facts it is very difficult for me to imagine...even if we were created artificially...then by whom and to what end?

There are scientists that maintain that there hasn't been enough time on Earth to evolve humans from the chemical creation of life via a single cell.

That would imply that while our planet was still settling down to a livable state, evolving cells were percolating elsewhere on a planet with liquid water.
These were blasted off into space (achieving escape velocity alive in this detonation) and then, also surviving a re-entry after perhaps thousands of years of intergalactic or interstellar space travel.

Hey, it could happen. Philosophy is largely human imagination (as is religion). It's all good.  
 
 

DeezerShoove » 26 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm

There are scientists that maintain that there hasn't been enough time on Earth to evolve humans from the chemical creation of life via a single cell.

That would imply that while our planet was still settling down to a livable state, evolving cells were percolating elsewhere on a planet with liquid water.
These were blasted off into space (achieving escape velocity alive in this detonation) and then, also surviving a re-entry after perhaps thousands of years of intergalactic or interstellar space travel.

Hey, it could happen. Philosophy is largely human imagination (as is religion). It's all good.

Grsping at straws man. 

You can always take advantage of the fact that science is intrinsically a skeptical pursuit. 

But the current paradigm is in fact evolution because it quite simply has far superior predictive and explanatory power. 

As I have often said...people need to work out their epistemology. And it needs to be something mature. 

My own epistemology relies very little on authority. I really do not care. If academic authority conflicts with biblical authority...I take no side.. 

But I do side with the theory of evolution because quite simply it makes so much **** fall into place. 

Even blm race riots are easy to explain if you accept evolution. It is undeniably an observable phenomena...my own city burned down thanks to it. 

And what could have inspired such drastic action?

Genetic loyalty. Nothing else. 
 

Vegas » 26 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 12:53 pm

Plato came up with concepts called forms. He wanted to define certain concepts such as beauty, justice, mankind...etc... These forms are to be considered the ultimate standard that the concepts are to be measured against. If there is a better, then there is a best that should be defined. This best is what defines the concepts. However, unfortunately, he never could define these forms. They remain vague and abstract. For example, a man/woman is only a copy of the form mankind. So, a painting of a man/woman is a copy of a copy. 

This lays the groundwork for my thought experiment. We argue much about the existence of a God. Religion will say that mankind is made in the image of God (Plato's version of a copy.). However, mankind does not know exactly what this form is. Science says mother nature is the form, religion says God is the form, Narcissists like @Blackvegetable  says that he is the form...etc...

We are in a age of building humanoid robots that can think on their own. Their form would be us humans. We made them in our image. However, that leads to a question. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of? We use algorithms, electrons, and metal to dictate the behavior and thoughts of humanoid bots.

We are made up of DNA and cells that dictate our behavior and thoughts. We are unaware of this form to which we are copies of. Likewise, wouldn't AI bots be unaware of us?

In conclusion: Two questions: 

1. What if we are AI bots for a species that we are unaware of?
2. would AI bots be unaware of us?


Prediction
1. Veghead will say "you are a **** moron."

you are recycling corruption since its founding concepts of mind over matter navigated naturally by each lifetime's brain occupying space at the same time reproductions mutually exist as conceived to replace those adding the next generation arriving here changing population like never before again.

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 5:13 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:13 pm

Grsping at straws man. 

You can always take advantage of the fact that science is intrinsically a skeptical pursuit. 

But the current paradigm is in fact evolution because it quite simply has far superior predictive and explanatory power. 

As I have often said...people need to work out their epistemology. And it needs to be something mature. 

My own epistemology relies very little on authority. I really do not care. If academic authority conflicts with biblical authority...I take no side.. 

But I do side with the theory of evolution because quite simply it makes so much **** fall into place. 

Even blm race riots are easy to explain if you accept evolution. It is undeniably an observable phenomena...my own city burned down thanks to it. 

And what could have inspired such drastic action?

Genetic loyalty. Nothing else.

Where did I say evolution was a non-starter?

All religion is based on fear.

They both exist. People use one to argue against the other.

DeezerShoove » 26 Jun 2022, 5:33 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:33 pm

Where did I say evolution was a non-starter?

All religion is based on fear.

They both exist. People use one to argue against the other.

I don't agree that religion is based on fear. Nor do I think either need be used to argue against the other. I'm not really understanding what you are saying.
 

Deezer Shoove » 26 Jun 2022, 5:33 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:33 pm

Where did I say evolution was a non-starter?

All religion is based on fear.

They both exist. People use one to argue against the other.

All religions are based on deflecting everyone from noticing how life doesn't stay the same all the time occupying space now. All scientific theories co-operate with religions prohibiting anyone discussing kinetic genetics without being punished for crimes against humanity.

omh » 26 Jun 2022, 5:59 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:59 pm

All religions are based on deflecting everyone from noticing how life doesn't stay the same all the time occupying space now. All scientific theories co-operate with religions prohibiting anyone discussing kinetic genetics without being punished for crimes against humanity.

Wrong.
 

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 5:46 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:46 pm

I don't agree that religion is based on fear. Nor do I think either need be used to argue against the other. I'm not really understanding what you are saying.

The need to grapple with the Great Unknown.
The dark, the loneliness, our purpose, the need for meaning to life because we will die.
All that ****.

Are you saying it comes from love?

btw I said people use one to argue against the other. Are you saying that's untrue?
I didn't say everybody. But people do...
Why do people get so **** literal around here?

DeezerShoove » 26 Jun 2022, 8:15 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 8:15 pm

The need to grapple with the Great Unknown.
The dark, the loneliness, our purpose, the need for meaning to life because we will die.
All that ****.

Are you saying it comes from love?

btw I said people use one to argue against the other. Are you saying that's untrue?
I didn't say everybody. But people do...
Why do people get so **** literal around here?

U don't need to grapple with any great unknown lol. 

Some knowledge is not meant for mortals.. fine.. whatever.

Not everyone even gives a ****. Maybe it is internalized humility lol.not my problem. 
 

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 2:35 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 2:35 pm

no...human beings are clearly a product of evolution. 

All of our behavior can easily be explained and predicted from the lens of reproductive fitness. 

Reproductive fitness of the TRIBE, mind you. Because that is all that actually matters from a macroscopic perspective. Yes individuals will sacrifice themselves..just like ants and bees will sacrifice themselves for the hive...but they do so in hopes of increasing the reproductive fitness of the tribe. 

Gene replication does not objectively benefit any entity we know of. Not even ourselves...since the desire to survive itself is simply a preference we happen to be programmed with. 

Considering these facts it is very difficult for me to imagine...even if we were created artificially...then by whom and to what end?

This is all true, but none of it answers the two questions from the OP.

Vegas » 26 Jun 2022, 9:26 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 9:26 pm

This is all true, but none of it answers the two questions from the OP.

the two questions in the op are asking for some alternate explanation that is frankly less simple and explanatory than simple biology.

Thus I reject them.

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 9:27 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 9:27 pm

the two questions in the op are asking for some alternate explanation that is frankly less simple and explanatory than simple biology.

Thus I reject them.

It has nothing to do with biology. It has to do with awareness. 

Vegas » 26 Jun 2022, 9:29 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 9:29 pm

It has nothing to do with biology. It has to do with awareness.

like...how aware you are of biology?

DeezerShoove » 26 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm

There are scientists that maintain that there hasn't been enough time on Earth to evolve humans from the chemical creation of life via a single cell.


 

I have never heard this. That's interesting. 

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 9:30 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 9:30 pm

like...how aware you are of biology?

No. How aware would an AI bot be of its creators. Would they eventually try and study us like we study evolution? 

Vegas » 26 Jun 2022, 9:32 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 9:32 pm

No. How aware would an AI bot be of its creators. Would they eventually try and study us like we study evolution?

Why would they do anything?

FOS » 26 Jun 2022, 8:55 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2022, 8:55 pm

U don't need to grapple with any great unknown lol. 

Some knowledge is not meant for mortals.. fine.. whatever.

Not everyone even gives a ****. Maybe it is internalized humility lol.not my problem.

Again taking it as though I mean you personally. I don't.
btw You didn't create religion either.

People grapple, you say you don't.
But you do... just about different things.