Liberal Forum

Monderegal » 10 Aug 2022, 12:29 pm » wrote: ↑

10 Aug 2022, 12:29 pm

Just to get off the topic of politics for a second I would like to get a bit more philosophical. What is intelligence? Is it simply an innate property measured by IQ? Or is it a product of the right upbringing and training? Further more, perhaps it is like athletics where you may be gifted but the best training also helps mold your skills?

what is intelligence? 
What ever I say! and Don't you forget it!       

Skans » 11 Aug 2022, 3:19 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 3:19 pm

I think if you read what I wrote, you would realize that I am not "pretending that IQ doesn't measure something that matters".  IQ tests are statistically valid, and yes, valid predictors of other things that do matter, I would never dispute this. What I question is whether this type of statistical analysis or statistical correlation is actually "science" or is it just another performance-based measurement.  

True science explains the "why" behind the statistical correlation or evidence, hopefully with verifiable precision.

Actually this is incorrect. If you are orthodox about the scientific method of Francis bacon and the inductive empirical epistemology which is supposed to be the foundation of science, then you would say that a scientist should never even attempt to answer any why questions. 

It is not necessary to understand why anything is the way it is in order to make useful predictions. If you observe x then there is y% of z. That is all science does.

scientists might sometimes hazard guesses about why but the moment they do that they are doing philosophy and not science.

SJConspirator » 11 Aug 2022, 2:55 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 2:55 pm

A common archetype is the absent minded professor, maybe similar to idiot savant.  That person makes intelligence into a kind of dual expression, where they are genius in some area but lack common sense

sure that's an archtype...but I feel like people understand what someone means when they say so and so is intelligent. Very few people would then ask 'intelligent at what?'. An intelligent person is just someone you can expect to become pretty good at whatever they decide to focus on.. 

FOS » 11 Aug 2022, 4:13 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 4:13 pm

Actually this is incorrect. If you are orthodox about the scientific method of Francis bacon and the inductive empirical epistemology which is supposed to be the foundation of science, then you would say that a scientist should never even attempt to answer any why questions. 

It is not necessary to understand why anything is the way it is in order to make useful predictions. If you observe x then there is y% of z. That is all science does.

scientists might sometimes hazard guesses about why but the moment they do that they are doing philosophy and not science.

All science is based upon the causality of a theoretical phenomenon, and the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and subsequently the explanation of said phenomenon.  Yes, the answering "why" is part of science.   What you describe is mathematical.

Skans » 11 Aug 2022, 4:18 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 4:18 pm

All science is based upon the causality of a theoretical phenomenon, and the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and subsequently the explanation of said phenomenon.  Yes, the answering "why" is part of science.   What you describe is mathematical.

exact opposite. Math and science are opposite. There is zero observation in math...and science should be all observation. 

This actually is well illustrated by the debate between Galileo and the cardinal who rejected his heliocentric model. And it is well understood by experts on the philosophy of science that the cardinal was actually CORRECT and seemed to understand science more than Galileo. The cardinal pointed out that science is merely about appearances. And even if it appears that the planet's orbit the sun..and if such a model makes the calculations simpler...it need not be concluded that the planet's DO orbit the sun. This is actually true.from a purely scientific perspective both interpretations are equally valid, as long as you build enough complex epicycles to correctly predict where a planet is gonna be at what time. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

"Referring to Bellarmine's letter to Foscarini, physicist Pierre Duhem "suggests that in one respect, at least, Bellarmine had shown himself a better scientist (or philosopher of science) than Galileo by disallowing the possibility of a 'strict proof of the Earth's motion', on the grounds that an astronomical theory merely 'saves the appearances' without necessarily revealing what 'really happens'".[6]

FOS » 11 Aug 2022, 4:25 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 4:25 pm

exact opposite. Math and science are opposite. There is zero observation in math...and science should be all observation. 

This actually is well illustrated by the debate between Galileo and the cardinal who rejected his heliocentric model. And it is well understood by experts on the philosophy of science that the cardinal was actually CORRECT and seemed to understand science more than Galileo. The cardinal pointed out that science is merely about appearances. And even if it appears that the planet's orbit the sun..and if such a model makes the calculations simpler...it need not be concluded that the planet's DO orbit the sun. This is actually true.from a purely scientific perspective both interpretations are equally valid, as long as you build enough complex epicycles to correctly predict where a planet is gonna be at what time. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

"Referring to Bellarmine's letter to Foscarini, physicist Pierre Duhem "suggests that in one respect, at least, Bellarmine had shown himself a better scientist (or philosopher of science) than Galileo by disallowing the possibility of a 'strict proof of the Earth's motion', on the grounds that an astronomical theory merely 'saves the appearances' without necessarily revealing what 'really happens'".[6]

The philosophical debate is all well and good, however it does not solve what I perceive as the genuine biochemical science of intelligence vs. measurement and statistical correlation inferring a specific level of intelligence. Perhaps both are "science".  It's just that I am more interested in the inner workings of brain structures and chemistry and you seem more interested in racial aspects of intelligence based on testing.  
 
 

Skans » 11 Aug 2022, 8:07 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 8:07 pm

The philosophical debate is all well and good, however it does not solve what I perceive as the genuine biochemical science of intelligence vs. measurement and statistical correlation inferring a specific level of intelligence. Perhaps both are "science".  It's just that I am more interested in the inner workings of brain structures and chemistry and you seem more interested in racial aspects of intelligence based on testing.

what's the difference between races? Genes. That's biochemical lol. And yes scientists are already at the point where they can map certain genes to certain iq...they have been for at least 5 years. So these two approaches to intelligence have already converged to the same thing. 

What a purely neurological analysis fails to do is connect the predictions to society as a whole and an individuals behavior and outcome in society.

You wont get anywhere in electrical engineering or mech. engineering without math. It's pure math.

If you are a Liberal..it is permissable to believe that physical superiorities / inferiorities can and do exist between the races.
This is permissable..just as long as they don't broadcast this too loudly.
WHAT IS TOTAL BLASPHEMY is for any Liberal to admit that Intellectual superiorities / inferiorities exist between the races.
They have been trained to believe that all races evolved with absolutely equal intellectual and behavioral abilities and tendencies.
Anything less is THE DEFINITION OF RACISM. In their minds evolutionary differences only took place from the neck down and not between the ears. To believe differently in Lib Fascist USA / Europe might even get you arrested or at least expelled from school, or fired from your job.
SO....the bleeding heart, white guilt Liberal absolutely hates IQ tests and has been trained to recite a list full of reasons why IQ tests are seriously flawed and inadequate.
Some Liberals have been challenged to design their own IQ test that was free of all the "Cultural Biases" and all of the other usual excuses...then the tests were handed out to a "racially balanced' number of test subjects and guess what the results were..?
The ranking by race ALWAYS remained the same.

GHETTOBLASTER » 11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm

You wont get anywhere in electrical engineering or mech. engineering without math. It's pure math.

the sciences use math as a language simply because math is totally unambiguous and you can be very exact with it. It is the best language to say exactly what you mean.

But there is no such thing as a number 1 in the physical world nor a perfect circle or anything like that. The math is purely used as a language. The object of study for science is the physical world. 

FOS » 11 Aug 2022, 8:46 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 8:46 pm

the sciences use math as a language simply because math is totally unambiguous and you can be very exact with it. It is the best language to say exactly what you mean.

But there is no such thing as a number 1 in the physical world nor a perfect circle or anything like that. The math is purely used as a language. The object of study for science is the physical world.

There is no other way besides math.
The number 1 in the electrical world is UNITY.....Unity Power factor in electrical circuit | formula & concept | Edumir-Physics (electronicsphysics.com)
I have a 12 volt battery that is in series with 12 ohms of resistance. how many amps are flowing through the circuit...? 
The discovery of the Black Hole was made first by mathematical theory...it was just a mathematical possibility.....then it was proven later via observation .

 

FOS » 11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm

what's the difference between races? Genes. That's biochemical lol. And yes scientists are already at the point where they can map certain genes to certain iq...they have been for at least 5 years. So these two approaches to intelligence have already converged to the same thing. 

What a purely neurological analysis fails to do is connect the predictions to society as a whole and an individuals behavior and outcome in society.

The differences in the cardinal and Galileo were also one of consequence to the church's legitimate authority was being questioned. While it caused a stir in dogma which disproved the Catholic church's authority the changes were made and the church survived because a lot of Christianity is still on solid footing, just the flaws in natural law theories were exposed.
Is there a genetic relation to iq? Perhaps. What should we do in consequence to that reality? I feel that some are discredited with even human value. That's the missing point. One might be better than the other but the other isn't necessarily any less capable or in that notion a human being because of it.

Monderegal » 11 Aug 2022, 10:12 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 10:12 pm

Is there a genetic relation to iq? .......[OF COURSE THERE IS]

What should we do in consequence to that reality?   [LET'S Provide for all of their survival needs plus preferential hiring and SAT Bonuses / LET'S Reward them for making babies]

I feel that some are discredited with even human value.
[Hopefully you would never discredit their human value or be disrespectful to any of these people you love so much if they did some silly little thing like beat your mother to death]

One might be better than the other but the other isn't necessarily any less capable or in that notion a human being because of it.......

 

 

Monderegal » 11 Aug 2022, 10:12 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 10:12 pm

The differences in the cardinal and Galileo were also one of consequence to the church's legitimate authority was being questioned. While it caused a stir in dogma which disproved the Catholic church's authority the changes were made and the church survived because a lot of Christianity is still on solid footing, just the flaws in natural law theories were exposed.
Is there a genetic relation to iq? Perhaps. What should we do in consequence to that reality? I feel that some are discredited with even human value. That's the missing point. One might be better than the other but the other isn't necessarily any less capable or in that notion a human being because of it.

I have no clue what you are even trying to say. It sounds like you are trying to make a strawman of my beliefs but I cannot figure out what you are claiming. 

FOS » 11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 8:14 pm

what's the difference between races? Genes.

Of course.  The only thing I'd say in response to that statement is that where there has been mixing of the races, it's not so easy to correlate intelligence with race. 

And yes scientists are already at the point where they can map certain genes to certain iq...they have been for at least 5 years. So these two approaches to intelligence have already converged to the same thing.

I assume that you are referring to genetic markers that correlate to either high or low intelligence.  Probably not "average" intelligence. Still, genetics does not explain at all the framework of high intelligence. The cause, (or result of a disease/condition which causes) low intelligence can actually be observed directly in many (not all) instances.  But, what about high intelligence?  I do not believe, or at least I have not read anything which actually maps out the chemical/neural connections which defines high intelligence, or even distinguishes between high average and average intelligence. It's there, it has to be! 
 

Nazis thought their science taught them actual genetics, but of course, they know zilch about DNA and RNA and thought that blond hair, blue eyes and a pale skin were signs of the superiority of the "Aryan race".

Aryan comes from the same word as "Iran", and a majority of Iranians are rarely blond or blue eyed. Nazi science was bunk.

Monderegal » 10 Aug 2022, 12:29 pm » wrote: ↑

10 Aug 2022, 12:29 pm

Just to get off the topic of politics for a second I would like to get a bit more philosophical. What is intelligence? Is it simply an innate property measured by IQ? Or is it a product of the right upbringing and training? Further more, perhaps it is like athletics where you may be gifted but the best training also helps mold your skills?

Stupid thread.

FOS » 11 Aug 2022, 10:54 pm » wrote: ↑

11 Aug 2022, 10:54 pm

I have no clue what you are even trying to say. It sounds like you are trying to make a strawman of my beliefs but I cannot figure out what you are claiming.

I'm claiming we are all human. We have certain God given rights and facilities. Iq can be bastardized too.
 

DeezerShoove » 12 Aug 2022, 9:01 am » wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022, 9:01 am

Stupid thread.

What is stupid?

Monderegal » 12 Aug 2022, 9:33 am » wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2022, 9:33 am

What is stupid?

It was just a stupid bump. Relax.

I'm complicated.