Liberal Forum

Despite the relatively long period problems at the border have been transpiring I have yet to see even the border experts explain how the whole process works.  In order to address the issues you first have to understand how the whole process works from the syndicate perspective.  Many believe the migrants pay to be trafficked across the border.  This is very misleading.

What actually transpires is hundreds/thousands of different small Mexican gangs fight for control of areas along the border (perhaps 3 to 20 miles deep from the border).  Controlling even a few hundred yards of the border can be quite lucrative.  Looking at the map with up to date information you could color code sections of the map to identify what gang currently controls the length of the border from the furthest point East to the furthest point West.  Different sections  are more valuable than others depending on the amount of immigrant traffic seen, which depends on the ease with which travel can be made through that section of the border.  Many small groups fight and murder for control of various stretches of the border and enjoy protection from those more elevated in the large cartels.  These cartels are quite ruthless as the money to be made is extensive.  One 10 mile wide 20 mile deep section of the border generates 1 to 2 billion $ per month.  And that's just from illegal immigration (narcotics are another trafficked commodity).  You can sort of envision it as being analogous to how street gangs in the US fight and kill for control of street corner drug sales.


(cont'd)

Immigrants seeking to illegally enter the US do not pay money when they start their journey whereby they are delivered across the border. Instead they make their way to the border by whatever means they can utilize. Often on foot. Sometimes on trains (that's largely been curtailed). As they approach the border locals are on the lookout for outsiders. When they spot outsiders they confront them and make demands to cross through "their section of the border". This can be in the form of money or selling of children, whatever. So the cartels don't "traffic" the illegals across the border, they are there to exploit them. If there were no cartels along the border these immigrants would just continue their journey undisturbed into the US. They've just made a journey hundreds of miles to the border, they need little assistance to clear the last few miles and evading border control on the US side isn't an issue. What they require is protection from the border cartels!

The conditions are remarkably brutal and far from secure. The immigrants are treated worse than cattle for the most part. Females of all ages are raped as a general rule (some males too). Many of the females are raped dozens of times. Many children are actually purchased by the cartels and transported across into the US to be trafficked to the less affluent Jeffrey Epstein's of the world. Some are even decapitated and their organs harvested for sale to China and other Western nations including the US.
 

A warehouse was recently discovered where decapitated bodies were piling up after they could no longer be thrown into the Rio Grande river as authorities began investigating numerous headless bodies in the river. At a disputed section of the border several gangs were raiding rival gang territories and killing immigrants to undercut their competitions traffic. Up-start gangs without secure turf to call their own intercept immigrants, demand payment, only to leave them without assistance or the funds to make the final few miles of the journey. In such cases the outcomes are usually less than optimum.

This is why the "remain in Mexico Policy" Trump put in place was so effective. It didn't so much stop the flow of people who wanted to get into the US. What it did do was largely cut the cartels out of the loop. So don't think of it as immigrants being trafficked. It is really immigrants having to pay protection money and in many cases suffering at the hands of all manner of violent criminals. This is why Biden's Border Doctrine is so incredibly inhumane. Regardless of whether you agree with all the illegal immigration or not, I think we can all agree it would be a far superior process set up state department offices throughout Mexico where potential immigrants could register and once processed could get the same bus rides to New York (just slightly extended trip). At least this would save them from suffering the murder, rape, and extortion. And in the process would keep the illicit funds out of cartel hands... something I fear we will pay dearly in the near future. Already are... Fentanyl deaths are skyrocketing! Currently twice as many American youth are being killed by Fentanyl every year as were killed in the entire 11 years of Vietnam! Migrant extortion along the length of the border due to Biden's Border Policy are conservatively estimated at $25 Billion with more reasonable estimates around $75 Billion annually, rivaling the narcotics traffic.

 
 

Many Americans detest the border crasher's due to the perceived strain on an already over-strained US economy. Believing the immigrants take jobs from Americans. As for unemployment strains to the economy such positions are unwarranted when one realizes, while they do take pay for the work, the work they provide is of equal or greater value to the economy. The real strain comes from the now world wide belief if you come to the US we will give you free money. The current social state in the US is the problem and it precludes us from taking on millions of immigrants who desire a free ride, compared to the immigration during the late 19th and 20th centuries.
 
 
 

Oh! The INHUMANITY! Good thread tho!
WELCOME!
 

Good OP and follow up. Sorry for the limits on text - long story. It screws everyone equally.

nuckinfutz » 31 Aug 2022, 7:59 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Aug 2022, 7:59 pm

Oh! The INHUMANITY! Good thread tho!
WELCOME!

You couldn't suck more as a poster if you tried.

DeezerShoove » 31 Aug 2022, 10:10 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Aug 2022, 10:10 pm

You couldn't suck more as a poster if you tried.

I will never suck as much as you do!      
 

DeezerShoove » 31 Aug 2022, 10:10 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Aug 2022, 10:10 pm

You couldn't suck more as a poster if you tried.

Ah, jeez, don't CHALLENGE the fruitcake!   

LibDave » 31 Aug 2022, 7:55 pm » wrote: ↑

31 Aug 2022, 7:55 pm

Many Americans detest the border crasher's due to the perceived strain on an already over-strained US economy. Believing the immigrants take jobs from Americans. As for unemployment strains to the economy such positions are unwarranted when one realizes, while they do take pay for the work, the work they provide is of equal or greater value to the economy. The real strain comes from the now world wide belief if you come to the US we will give you free money. The current social state in the US is the problem and it precludes us from taking on millions of immigrants who desire a free ride, compared to the immigration during the late 19th and 20th centuries.

Every electrical, plumbing, roofing, sheet rocking, painting, welding, pool cleaning, truck driving, etc.  job they do takes work away from legitimate taxpaying US Citizens and the work they do for less money harms  the prevailing wage structure for the entire region.

GHETTOBLASTER » 01 Sep 2022, 12:53 am » wrote: ↑

01 Sep 2022, 12:53 am

Every electrical, plumbing, roofing, sheet rocking, painting, welding, pool cleaning, truck driving, etc.  job they do takes work away from legitimate taxpaying US Citizens and the work they do for less money harms  the prevailing wage structure for the entire region.

You are correct to an extent.  If you are competing directly with illegals (and the industries you named are flooded with them) then you are being harmed directly through excess supply in a competitive labor market.  However, for the nation as a whole it is actually a small economic benefit due to the fact prices for the products they produce are lower to an even greater extent than the wages they are paid.  So for every dollar lost to a legal worker (say a roofer) there are more dollars saved when I go to purchase a house.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the legal worker who has to compete with them.  But my point was, as a whole they don't hurt the economy.  As a hypothetical, if 1.4 billion Chinese agreed to come to America and work for 10 cents an hour what would be the effect.  I would hire one for $1 to work 10 hours a day manicuring my lawn.  Another cute little Asian girl to massage my back for an hour.  Another for 40 cents a day to clean my house and cook.  Even the food I eat would be grown by this army of 0.10/hour workers.  I could fund every aspect and need in my life working 10 minutes a day at a different profession.  My standard of living would be immensely improved.

Now I hear you saying, but where would you work for 10 minutes.  The answer is, there is ALWAYS more work to be done.  There is actually no such thing as a lack of work.  If I work on my yard or do home improvement tasks, can I ever say I am truly done?  Of course not.  There are always improvements which could be made.  The question becomes are these envisioned improvements worth the continued expenditure of my labor?
 

LibDave » 01 Sep 2022, 9:52 am » wrote: ↑

01 Sep 2022, 9:52 am

You are correct to an extent.  If you are competing directly with illegals (and the industries you named are flooded with them) then you are being harmed directly through excess supply in a competitive labor market.  However, for the nation as a whole it is actually a small economic benefit due to the fact prices for the products they produce are lower to an even greater extent than the wages they are paid.  So for every dollar lost to a legal worker (say a roofer) there are more dollars saved when I go to purchase a house.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the legal worker who has to compete with them.  But my point was, as a whole they don't hurt the economy.  As a hypothetical, if 1.4 billion Chinese agreed to come to America and work for 10 cents an hour what would be the effect.  I would hire one for $1 to work 10 hours a day manicuring my lawn.  Another cute little Asian girl to massage my back for an hour.  Another for 40 cents a day to clean my house and cook.  Even the food I eat would be grown by this army of 0.10/hour workers.  I could fund every aspect and need in my life working 10 minutes a day at a different profession.  My standard of living would be immensely improved.

Now I hear you saying, but where would you work for 10 minutes.  The answer is, there is ALWAYS more work to be done.  There is actually no such thing as a lack of work.  If I work on my yard or do home improvement tasks, can I ever say I am truly done?  Of course not.  There are always improvements which could be made.  The question becomes are these envisioned improvements worth the continued expenditure of my labor?

There are 20  million Illegal Aliens in the USA
There is no upside to that.
Without them our Labor Unions would be MUCH STRONGER
Life is abgout competition for limited resources and they do not pay back into our system
 

GHETTOBLASTER » 01 Sep 2022, 10:01 am » wrote: ↑

01 Sep 2022, 10:01 am

There are 20  million Illegal Aliens in the USA
There is no upside to that.
Without them our Labor Unions would be MUCH STRONGER
Life is abgout competition for limited resources and they do not pay back into our system

My point of contention is you are only accounting for one side of the equation and you are not being consistent in your identifications.  It is important to discern what type of illegal is doing harm.  You claimed those who come to work are somehow a detriment.  You identify the food they eat and everything else they consume as a detraction from Americans.  It isn't.  Everything they consume is purchased with the labor they expend.  And according to the laws of economics this labor MUST BE of greater value than what they consume.  Otherwise an employer wouldn't hire them if their produce was less than their pay.

The proper distinction is between illegals who come and work and those who come to take advantage of our socialist entitlement systems.  It is this socialism which is the problem.  Consider the millions upon millions of immigrants who came to America through the 1920s.  They were a tremendous boom to our nation and in fact were responsible for the ascendancy of the United States as the world's foremost economic powerhouse.  But we had no social state at the time.

Contrast that with the situation today. Many of these illegals (I believe the majority) are coming here today for entitlements. These modern day contemporaries to the immigrants 100 years prior are a different animal. The consensus among these newly arriving illegals is that upon arrival the US government will just hand them $20,000/year and they will live like kings in comparison to their former standards. In fact, the cartels and Soros and others are actually advertising this notion in 3rd world countries throughout the globe in an effort to undermine the US economy. To a certain extent they aren't mistaken in this regard as socialism has proliferated in the US over the last century. Socialism is what these immigrants envision when they consider governments role as a social state. It is all they know.

Other distinctions must be made for those who enter with the interest of committing crime. Most notable is drug trafficking.

I'll give and example I witnessed first-hand as a continuation.
 

GHETTOBLASTER » 01 Sep 2022, 10:01 am » wrote: ↑

01 Sep 2022, 10:01 am

There are 20  million Illegal Aliens in the USA
There is no upside to that.
Without them our Labor Unions would be MUCH STRONGER
Life is abgout competition for limited resources and they do not pay back into our system

Labor unions suffer bcuz Republicans are anti-union, not bcuz of immigrants. 
 

LibDave » 01 Sep 2022, 10:19 am » wrote: ↑

01 Sep 2022, 10:19 am

My point of contention is you are only accounting for one side of the equation and you are not being consistent in your identifications.  It is important to discern what type of illegal is doing harm.  You claimed those who come to work are somehow a detriment.  You identify the food they eat and everything else they consume as a detraction from Americans.  It isn't.  Everything they consume is purchased with the labor they expend.  And according to the laws of economics this labor MUST BE of greater value than what they consume.  Otherwise an employer wouldn't hire them if their produce was less than their pay.

The proper distinction is between illegals who come and work and those who come to take advantage of our socialist entitlement systems.  It is this socialism which is the problem.  Consider the millions upon millions of immigrants who came to America through the 1920s.  They were a tremendous boom to our nation and in fact were responsible for the ascendancy of the United States as the world's foremost economic powerhouse.  But we had no social state at the time.

What was a "BOOM" to the needs of our nation 100 years ago does not apply now. 
MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE TAKING MILLIONS OF JOBS AWAY FROM MILLIONS OF US CITIZENS.
BEFORE ILLEGAL ALIENS INVADED THE SKILLED LABOR MARKET A UNION TRADESMAN COULD AFFORD A HOUSE, 3 KIDS AND A WIFE TO ACT AS A FULL TIME MOTHER.
THE UNION MARKETSHARE HAS SUFFERED GREATLY THANKS TO MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS
THIS IS NOT DEBATABLE.

Pastafarian » 01 Sep 2022, 10:23 am » wrote: ↑

01 Sep 2022, 10:23 am

Labor unions suffer bcuz THERE ARE 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS TAKING THEIR WORK AND DOING IT FOR SCAB WAGES AND ZERO BENEFITS

 

Not long ago I went to Walmart late at night to get supplies. I normally go late to avoid crowds. After arrival as my foot hit the pavement the heavens opened up with a torrential rain (Dallas). So I sprinted towards the door only to discover a bus was parked directly in front of the entrance. I thought, "Oh great, bad luck won't quit today." Navigating around the bus I approached the entrance doors to witness the entire vestibule area was crammed with about 100 or more people. They were all illegals bused to Dallas by the Biden administration and just dropped off at the front entrance to the Walmart. This particular group were 100% from Bolivia and without exception were all in excess of say 55 to 90 years of age. Their garb betrayed their origins as I recognized their colored woolen ponchos, colored cylindrical caps and rotund genetic traits.

I couldn't even get to the carts it was so crowded and I overheard an argument between the store manager and the bus driver. Bus driver said, "All I know is I was told to drop them off at a Walmart in Dallas. This is Dallas and this is a Walmart so my task is done." The illegals weren't proceeding into the store because they had no money to purchase anything and I'm sure they were experiencing a bit of culture shock. I tried to wade through the crowd to get a cart with limited success.

I noticed an elderly Bolivian woman perhaps 65 looking at me along with a group of older Bolivian males. I got the impression I was the subject of their conversation. Passing by she stopped me and made some hand gestures which I didn't understand. I thought, "Oh great! Not only is Biden allowing them entry and dumping them off, not 1 of the 100 spoke ANY English. I granted her a moment and said, "English?" She didn't know the word English. She then pointed at me, then made a steering wheel motion then pointed at herself and her group. I took this to mean she wanted to know if I would drive them somewhere. She then handed me a piece of paper with the words "Governmente dolares oficina". She wanted to know if I could drive them to the government dollar office at 11:30 PM. I was flabbergasted!

Now on what planet are we in thinking by the time the lot of them croak we will be able to assimilate these people into American society? There is just no way!!! They will be nothing but a burden and their only interest is in being provided for. These are the people who are at issue and the reason we need to get control of the border. They and the drug traffickers.