Liberal Forum

LibDave » 12 Sep 2022, 10:42 pm » wrote: ↑

12 Sep 2022, 10:42 pm

How long will Russia tolerate?  Russia isn't a superpower.  They're in no position not to tolerate.  Russia is an oil company masquerading as a country.  Putin is a narcissistic dictator without any ability to run a military campaign and apparently he either isn't ALLOWING his generals to command or they too are incompetent.  Regardless, they are in no position to escalate this by widening the war to include the NATO forces.  Biden is indeed too passive and reluctant to play all his conventional cards.  So Putin has been tolerated by the US. 

Russia has nuclear armed ICBMs and advanced missile submarines. They are one of the world's super powers regardless of one's opinion of Putin. They are also closely allied with China, another of the world's super powers. 

Ukraine may not be the aggressor here but nato expanded to Russia's doorstep and indicated they planned to add Ukraine to the organization. Diplomacy was tried but amounted to "yes Ukraine is free to join nato, there is nothing short of invasion you can do to stop it. This is non negotiable". Worst Diplomacy Ever, and I remember the buildup to the Iraq invasion.  

Russia is only failing militarily if you believe their objective was invading and annexing the country, something that Russia has said was never their intention.  They are meeting most of their stated goals. No nato membership for Ukraine, donbas recognized as independent, full access to Crimea. They are failing miserably at taking Kiev, something they haven't attempted. 
 
 

What could Russia possibly do to prevent NATO from arming the Ukrainians?

Neo » 13 Sep 2022, 7:12 am » wrote: ↑

13 Sep 2022, 7:12 am

Russia has nuclear armed ICBMs and advanced missile submarines. They are one of the world's super powers regardless of one's opinion of Putin. They are also closely allied with China, another of the world's super powers. 

Ukraine may not be the aggressor here but nato expanded to Russia's doorstep and indicated they planned to add Ukraine to the organization. Diplomacy was tried but amounted to "yes Ukraine is free to join nato, there is nothing short of invasion you can do to stop it. This is non negotiable". Worst Diplomacy Ever, and I remember the buildup to the Iraq invasion.  

Russia is only failing militarily if you believe their objective was invading and annexing the country, something that Russia has said was never their intention.  They are meeting most of their stated goals. No nato membership for Ukraine, donbas recognized as independent, full access to Crimea. They are failing miserably at taking Kiev, something they haven't attempted.

Russia is not a superpower.  Neither is China.  Israel, India and Pakistan have nukes too and they aren't superpowers.  As for the submarines, yes they do.  But they aren't all that superb and numbers limited.  Especially China.  China won't export a Teddy Bear if they move on Taiwan. I'm well familiar and know the signs and contingencies.  We haven't given them everything.  We've given them everything they know, but not everything we know.  Although I'm starting to question where Biden's loyalty lays.

It is also quite possible China intends to move on Russia to obtain certain resources much like Hitler did in WWII. Now isn't the time for China to move into deep water. However, some analyses indicate it is a perfect time for them to move through Uzbekistan on Russia. They already essentially outnumber Russians in Kamchatka. It may well be the US may have to come to Russia's aid in such an event and plans exist for just that contingency as well. China could easily destroy Russia proper and enslave the Russians should they decide they aren't yet ready to move into deep water.

No. Russia did plan to take Ukraine quickly and entirely. Their plans had to change. Russia doesn't dictate whether Ukraine becomes a NATO member, especially not now. Only Russia recognizes Donbas as independent. Ukraine may take back the Crimea before it is all over. Regardless of the outcome, what Russia has failed to realize is this conflict will not end even if they do prevail over Ukraine. It's as if Putin thinks defeating Ukraine will subsequently result in a return to normal relations. It won't. In short order US production will return in full and then some. US can and will supply Europe with it's energy needs. Might as well start dismantling the pipeline now. Never again will the NATO countries bring Russia into the fold and rely on Russia for energy. Sanctions will actually get WORSE if Russia prevails. As for plans to move on the Baltic States, lol. They hate Russians as much or more than the Ukrainians, Swedes and Fins. Every generation creates its despots who believe they can take the wealth of others by force.
 
And we had no intentions of bringing Ukraine into NATO.  Plans were made well in advance to invade Ukraine.  It was an excuse.

Xavier_Onassis » 13 Sep 2022, 10:41 am » wrote: ↑

13 Sep 2022, 10:41 am

What could Russia possibly do to prevent NATO from arming the Ukrainians?

It's an escalation. What did the US do when Russia offered ransoms on US troops in Afghanistan? Obvious what we did to Afghanistan on finding someone living in their territories provided material support for 9-11.