Liberal Forum

LowIQTrash » 03 Nov 2024, 3:29 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 3:29 am

The sad and pathetic part…the RePuKES keep saying they will “cut taxes” (their favorite issue, never mind immigration or “rolling back abortion rights / privileges”) yet the avg working peon is paying 25-30% of measly wages in COMBINED federal, state, and local. 

This is only slightly lower than what European peons pay and Europeans get much better social services.

Conservative retards always say they will cut “federal taxes” when it’s actually STATE and LOCAL taxes becoming more and more burdensome.

After you remove non-discretionary expenses 75% of the country have nothing to save (or are in debt from “unforeseen” expenses e.g.car breaks down that follow a Poisson distribution of occurrence).

Are you sure about that bolded part? Every time I've taken a look, the tax rates are considerably higher.

France for instance:
https://prasanthragupathy.com/2024/01/t ... s-in-2024/

https://stripe.com/resources/more/vat-r ... %20company.

I have no problem with the additional social services, just be prepared to pay up. That stuff isn't free.

31st Arrival » 02 Nov 2022, 8:55 am » wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2022, 8:55 am

economics was designed to engage in psychological class warfare within the species lasting until extinction event. That is the dirty little secret that comes with faith nobody ever knew.

Babble on you **** idiot.

LowIQTrash » 03 Nov 2024, 3:29 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 3:29 am

The sad and pathetic part…the RePuKES keep saying they will “cut taxes” (their favorite issue, never mind immigration or “rolling back abortion rights / privileges”) yet the avg working peon is paying 25-30% of measly wages in COMBINED federal, state, and local. 

This is only slightly lower than what European peons pay and Europeans get much better social services.

Conservative retards always say they will cut “federal taxes” when it’s actually STATE and LOCAL taxes becoming more and more burdensome.

After you remove non-discretionary expenses 75% of the country have nothing to save (or are in debt from “unforeseen” expenses e.g.car breaks down that follow a Poisson distribution of occurrence).
 

Solve all your problems by moving your *** *** to Europe.

Fuelman » 03 Nov 2024, 9:16 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 9:16 am

Are you sure about that bolded part? Every time I've taken a look, the tax rates are considerably higher.

France for instance:
https://prasanthragupathy.com/2024/01/t ... s-in-2024/

https://stripe.com/resources/more/vat-r ... %20company.

I have no problem with the additional social services, just be prepared to pay up. That stuff isn't free.

It is difficult to ascertain what someone making, say, $80K a yr in the US would pay vs what the equivalent (based on percentile, not a simple currency conversion) would pay in France. 

I imagine the French counterpart would pay over 36%, which is significantly higher, but France is not the only country in question here.

Using “average” tax burden or just looking at rates is misleading because

1) You need to consider income skews; a greater percentage of ultra wealthy will skew averages higher even though those billionaires pay a microscopic % of their income (even less in terms of NW)

2) The USA has F, S, AND L taxes. Many reports only consider F tax burden while S and L taxes add at least 10%. 

3) VAT is typically around 15-20% in the EU but then we would need to know how much consumption is going on in their lives.

4) France has not had 40+ yrs of neoliberal politicians, while the United States has (and despite all this…the tax burden has stayed almost identical)

 

LowIQTrash » 03 Nov 2024, 11:15 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 11:15 am

4) France has not had 40+ yrs of neoliberal politicians, while the United States has (and despite all this…the tax burden has stayed almost identical)

Once those government positions are created the only way to eliminate SOME of them is to go totally bankrupt.
In Federal, State and Local  Government the emphasis everywhere has been to hire as many ****** as possible...so we have perhaps 2 million ****** with nice salaries and pensions doing the work that could have been accomplished with just 1 million Whites.
Just look at how many lazy and  illiterate ****** we have working as Public Skoo Teachers 'nsheet.
https://youtu.be/1-czf4Oipwk?si=RyIp3m38kppj2jxn
 

LowIQTrash » 03 Nov 2024, 11:15 am » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 11:15 am

It is difficult to ascertain what someone making, say, $80K a yr in the US would pay vs what the equivalent (based on percentile, not a simple currency conversion) would pay in France. 

I imagine the French counterpart would pay over 36%, which is significantly higher, but France is not the only country in question here.

Using “average” tax burden or just looking at rates is misleading because

1) You need to consider income skews; a greater percentage of ultra wealthy will skew averages higher even though those billionaires pay a microscopic % of their income (even less in terms of NW)

2) The USA has F, S, AND L taxes. Many reports only consider F tax burden while S and L taxes add at least 10%. 

3) VAT is typically around 15-20% in the EU but then we would need to know how much consumption is going on in their lives.

4) France has not had 40+ yrs of neoliberal politicians, while the United States has (and despite all this…the tax burden has stayed almost identical)

It's not an easy comparison down to the penny but just looking at the tax rates and payroll taxes give a pretty good indication of who is paying more as a % of income. Damn, 30% income tax above 28,000 euro? We don't hit 22% till a little over $80k here. Then there is the payroll tax portion, they pay plenty of extra taxes for those additional social services.

I just happened to pick out France.
A few other tidbits to consider:

The cost of an employee in France in 2024 includes the minimum wage, employer payroll contributions, and other mandatory social contributions:  

Minimum wageAs of January 1, 2024, the minimum wage in France is €11.65 per hour, or €1,766.92 per month for a 35-hour workweek. 
 Employer payroll contributionsIn addition to the employee's salary, employers in France can expect to pay an additional 31.56%–54.11% in payroll contributions.  

Social contributionsThe total primary social security contribution in France can be up to 50% for employers and 28% for employees. 

 Other contributionsThere are also additional contributions for employees earning more than a certain amount, such as a 6% contribution for sickness insurance for employees earning 2.5 times the minimum salary.  

BonusesIt's customary in France to give employees a 13th-month salary payment at the end of the year.  

The average annual salary for employees in France in 2024 is around €49,800, but this can vary by location and occupation.  


Sounds expensive to me. On the consumption end it looks like their government covered just about everything you could possibly buy albeit at different VAT rates.

I hope they are getting their money's worth.
 

Fuelman » 03 Nov 2024, 2:51 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 2:51 pm

It's not an easy comparison down to the penny but just looking at the tax rates and payroll taxes give a pretty good indication of who is paying more as a % of income. Damn, 30% income tax above 28,000 euro? We don't hit 22% till a little over $80k here. Then there is the payroll tax portion, they pay plenty of extra taxes for those additional social services.

I just happened to pick out France.
A few other tidbits to consider:

The cost of an employee in France in 2024 includes the minimum wage, employer payroll contributions, and other mandatory social contributions:  

Minimum wageAs of January 1, 2024, the minimum wage in France is €11.65 per hour, or €1,766.92 per month for a 35-hour workweek. 
 Employer payroll contributionsIn addition to the employee's salary, employers in France can expect to pay an additional 31.56%–54.11% in payroll contributions.  

Social contributionsThe total primary social security contribution in France can be up to 50% for employers and 28% for employees. 

 Other contributionsThere are also additional contributions for employees earning more than a certain amount, such as a 6% contribution for sickness insurance for employees earning 2.5 times the minimum salary.  

BonusesIt's customary in France to give employees a 13th-month salary payment at the end of the year.  

The average annual salary for employees in France in 2024 is around €49,800, but this can vary by location and occupation.  

Sounds expensive to me. On the consumption end it looks like their government covered just about everything you could possibly buy albeit at different VAT rates.

I hope they are getting their money's worth.

Here’s my most detailed take

https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/e ... states.pdf

1) France is the highest on that list (unreasonably high I might add, I would certainly balk at French levels of taxation) and that’s not my default benchmark

2) If you separate the taxes paid by category, it looks like the US has above avg taxes on income, property values, and on sales

The US is below avg on corporate taxes and none in the VAT section

Even tax to GDP ratio (Tax Revenue / Total GDP) is a bit misleading since GDP is just calculated as:

consumption + investment + government spending + (exports - imports)

(Guess which of those 2 Americans splurge on…)

If you artificially inflate the denominator since American citizens and the government are both spend-a-holics then of course your tax to GDP ratio is going to be misleading compared to what the avg American experiences as part of the tax payment yearly ritual

If someone has a half decent job and had to fork about a third of their income to all levels of government it would certainly refute the idea that Republicans have “cut taxes” as they claim (maybe “Republicans cutting taxes” only applies to billionaires and the 9+ figure NW club)   

And for these levels of taxation (moderate by OECD standards)…we get almost nothing in return. Social Security is going to be cut 10 years or fewer from now - a point I brought up before and you did not dispute.

The public schools are **** despite property values inflating every year, Medicare is likely going to make some cuts as well during that time period by reducing the number of valid “billable procedures,” the military pays 100x markup over cost to suppliers for essential parts, regulatory agencies designed to curb fraud and abuse like the SEC are trash (or worse, actively collaborating) etc…

Like JP Morgan paying a $50M fine on $1B profits

The fact Euros pay more in taxes (which I never disputed or argued) doesn’t change my opinion at all.

It’s still ****!

@Cannonpointer  
 

^^^^^ damn you're a media fed fool. Your take...lmao... All you know is what the tv and other sources tell you. People like you pretend you know so much and you don't, only what some source has fed you and then you parrot it as truth...sad indeed...

LowIQTrash » 03 Nov 2024, 3:15 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 3:15 pm

Here’s my most detailed take

https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/e ... states.pdf

1) France is the highest on that list (unreasonably high I might add, I would certainly balk at French levels of taxation) and that’s not my default benchmark

2) If you separate the taxes paid by category, it looks like the US has above avg taxes on income, property values, and on sales

The US is below avg on corporate taxes and none in the VAT section

Even tax to GDP ratio (Tax Revenue / Total GDP) is a bit misleading since GDP is just calculated as:

consumption + investment + government spending + (exports - imports)

(Guess which of those 2 Americans splurge on…)

If you artificially inflate the denominator since American citizens and the government are both spend-a-holics then of course your tax to GDP ratio is going to be misleading compared to what the avg American experiences as part of the tax payment yearly ritual

If someone has a half decent job and had to fork about a third of their income to all levels of government it would certainly refute the idea that Republicans have “cut taxes” as they claim (maybe “Republicans cutting taxes” only applies to billionaires and the 9+ figure NW club)   

And for these levels of taxation (moderate by OECD standards)…we get almost nothing in return. Social Security is going to be cut 10 years or fewer from now - a point I brought up before and you did not dispute.

The public schools are **** despite property values inflating every year, Medicare is likely going to make some cuts as well during that time period by reducing the number of valid “billable procedures,” the military pays 100x markup over cost to suppliers for essential parts, regulatory agencies designed to curb fraud and abuse like the SEC are trash (or worse, actively collaborating) etc…

Like JP Morgan paying a $50M fine on $1B profits

The fact Euros pay more in taxes (which I never disputed or argued) doesn’t change my opinion at all.

It’s still ****!

@Cannonpointer

It still looks expensive to me.
I didn't intend to pick out the highest tax country in the Euro zone.
https://taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-bo ... nationally

In the real world you have about zilch say-so where that money is spent. I don't mind bitching about it though, it's been a life long goal to minimize taxes. 

Yes, it's still **** and will probably get ****!

murdock » 03 Nov 2024, 3:48 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 3:48 pm

^^^^^ damn you're a media fed fool. Your take...lmao... All you know is what the tv and other sources tell you. People like you pretend you know so much and you don't, only what some source has fed you and then you parrot it as truth...sad indeed...

Conversation over your head?
 

Fuelman » 03 Nov 2024, 4:01 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 4:01 pm

Conversation over your head?
 

I know you don't like being told you're being fed by media, but stop swallowing everything they tell you.

murdock » 03 Nov 2024, 5:09 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 5:09 pm

I know you don't like being told you're being fed by media, but stop swallowing everything they tell you.

Believe it or not, there is some truth behind the articles that get posted here. It's up to you to discern and yes opinions do play a significant part. Doesn't bother me one iota should someone disagree.
 

Fuelman » 03 Nov 2024, 3:58 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 3:58 pm

It still looks expensive to me.
I didn't intend to pick out the highest tax country in the Euro zone.
https://taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-bo ... nationally

In the real world you have about zilch say-so where that money is spent. I don't mind bitching about it though, it's been a life long goal to minimize taxes. 

Yes, it's still **** and will probably get ****!

If one side gets overcharged for something, and the other side is a bit less overcharged for nothing, which side is getting harder **** becomes an academic dispute, I would say.  

Fuelman » 03 Nov 2024, 4:01 pm » wrote: ↑

03 Nov 2024, 4:01 pm

Conversation over your head?

Understatement, much?
 

Damn, there's some lying butthurt clowns here. Little leftist sissies always whining like babies over bs.

Cannonpointer » 04 Nov 2024, 9:37 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 9:37 am

If one side gets overcharged for something, and the other side is a bit less overcharged for nothing, which side is getting harder **** becomes an academic dispute, I would say.

Guess it depends on how hard you like to get ****?

It's difficult for Americans to buy into the community togetherness help your neighbors type of stuff. Too often the caring individuals get trampled by those expecting everything. 

Healthcare is an issue and the main difference between us and them.
I recently switched from methotrexate to Humira to control RA. The metho was a few dollars a month, the Humira is $6000/month for two pen shots. Thankfully the income cap was $140k to get it for free. Someone somewhere is getting seriously ****. We don't have commercial health insurance.
Would it be different with "free" healthcare? I have no idea.
 

Cannonpointer » 04 Nov 2024, 9:38 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 9:38 am

Understatement, much?
 

Lol, turds like you really enjoy showing how much of an *** they are.

murdock » 04 Nov 2024, 10:31 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 10:31 am

Lol, turds like you really enjoy showing how much of an *** they are.

Be a troll, expect to get trolled.
 

Fuelman » 04 Nov 2024, 10:24 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 10:24 am

Guess it depends on how hard you like to get ****?

It's difficult for Americans to buy into the community togetherness help your neighbors type of stuff. Too often the caring individuals get trampled by those expecting everything.

"Neighbor" has a meaning beyond "lives near me." Communities are built of neighbors, not of people who live nearby.

Fuelman » 04 Nov 2024, 10:24 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 10:24 am

Healthcare is an issue and the main difference between us and them.

Neither has health care. What we both have - and we pay directly, they pay through taxes - is emergency care. That is, sickness care - NOT health care.

Fuelman » 04 Nov 2024, 10:24 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 10:24 am

I recently switched from methotrexate to Humira to control RA. The metho was a few dollars a month, the Humira is $6000/month for two pen shots. Thankfully the income cap was $140k to get it for free. Someone somewhere is getting seriously ****. We don't have commercial health insurance.
Would it be different with "free" healthcare? I have no idea.

Humira is not health care at all. It is sickness care. Health care would be Qunol, lots of cayenne and other peppers in your diet, a lot of garlic and ginger in your diet, low carbs and high saturated fats (plenty of salmon but NO fish oil - the very best fish oil is ****), and plenty of full-spectrum, third-party-tested CBD.

R.A. is an inflammatory disease. A systemic and rigorous anti-inflammatory diet is health care. Shots and pills are sickness care.

But anyway, it sounds like you're getting socialized medicine to me. Doesn't it to you?
 

Cannonpointer » 04 Nov 2024, 10:51 am » wrote: ↑

04 Nov 2024, 10:51 am

"Neighbor" has a meaning beyond "lives near me." Communities are built of neighbors, not of people who live nearby.

Neither has health care. What we both have - and we pay directly, they pay through taxes - is emergency care. That is, sickness care - NOT health care.

Humira is not health care at all. It is sickness care. Health care would be Qunol, lots of cayenne and other peppers in your diet, a lot of garlic and ginger in your diet, low carbs and high saturated fats (plenty of salmon but NO fish oil - the very best fish oil is ****), and plenty of full-spectrum, third-party-tested CBD.

R.A. is an inflammatory disease. A systemic and rigorous anti-inflammatory diet is health care. Shots and pills are sickness care.

But anyway, it sounds like you're getting socialized medicine to me. Doesn't it to you?

I'm not sure I would call that socialized medicine. You know the drug company is taking a huge write off producing a product no one can afford.

I wish a diet change would take care of the RA but it has been **** with my lungs for years and has become more serious. 

The next step is a biological infusion, $22k for the first two rounds. Supposedly will last 4-6 months.
I guess it's my turn to be a charity case.