Liberal Forum

There have been some silly attempts to debate this subject in this forum...where nobody is a scholar and few people seem capable of basic logic. Usually the argument for the holocaust relies on the taboo of questioning it. 

Here is an example of 2 actual scholars debating the subject.

https://historyspeaks.substack.com/

some of my thoughts on this:

A lot depends on term getting in the mire of debating the veracity of various documents.. this is all a bit over my head...it woukd be very difficult to be enough of a scholar to know which person is more likely to be correct. But at the very least I would grant that the sources history speaks provided is enough for me to admit that believing the holocaust is not absurd...which was my former position on the subject. But the one thing both the people debating can agree on is thst there is a massive inconsistency in all of these documents. No two scholars can agree how many people died here or there or by what means etc. So the entire narrative is cloaked in uncertainty and it is difficult to impossible to tell who is telling the truth. If all thr holocaustbelievers were telling one consistent story and all agreed with eachother on the details...it would be easier to believe they were all informed by reliable primary sources. But they do not. Indeed...according to the official story it was taken for granted thst 4 million jews died at auschwitz...and this 'fact' was quietly removed in the 1990s...and both the people in the debate here would agree that the figure is absurd.

furthermore...I am still struck by the serious lack of actual physical evidence...and I find it impossible to believe thst such a massive project would leave no physical evidence. Again the report of some mass amount of bodies near treblinka is brought up...but the fact remains that for some mysterious reason nobody is willing to conduct a forensic investigation on those bodies to confirm they are jews from the time period. The holocaust believers devote a lot of energy trying to explain away this lack of evidence which relies on the idea that the SS was extremely good at destroying evidence (yet they will simultaneously argue that the SS came up with foolish methods of mass execution because the SS was not very competent). Regardless...lack of evidence is not evidence. And if we used trial law logic for this case...I would find it very difficult to convict a person for murder if nobody ever found a body or a murder weapon or anything like that...just a motive and arguably a threat?

furthermore...even if the ss was really good at razing gas chambers...I find it difficult to believe that no government knew what was happening until the end of the war. Especially with great Britain having cracked the enigma code...and flying over Germany and bombing concentration camps. How could such a massive operation really be a secret? This is a point that Dalton failed to make and I think he should have.

so yeah...overall I think Dalton won the debate...but i salute the other guy for a good showing and for trying at least to make a coherent argument rather than rely on the taboo of the question. 

FOS » 24 May 2023, 10:07 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 10:07 pm

There have been some silly attempts to debate this subject in this forum...where nobody is a scholar and few people seem capable of basic logic. Usually the argument for the holocaust relies on the taboo of questioning it. 

...

some of my thoughts on this:

A lot depends on term getting in the mire of debating the veracity of various documents.. this is all a bit over my head...it woukd be very difficult to be enough of a scholar to know which person is more likely to be correct. But at the very least I would grant that the sources history speaks provided is enough for me to admit that believing the holocaust is not absurd...which was my former position on the subject. But the one thing both the people debating can agree on is thst there is a massive inconsistency in all of these documents. No two scholars can agree how many people died here or there or by what means etc. So the entire narrative is cloaked in uncertainty and it is difficult to impossible to tell who is telling the truth. If all thr holocaustbelievers were telling one consistent story and all agreed with eachother on the details...it would be easier to believe they were all informed by reliable primary sources. But they do not. Indeed...according to the official story it was taken for granted thst 4 million jews died at auschwitz...and this 'fact' was quietly removed in the 1990s...and both the people in the debate here would agree that the figure is absurd.

furthermore...I am still struck by the serious lack of actual physical evidence...
...   ...
Regardless...lack of evidence is not evidence. And if we used trial law logic for this case...I would find it very difficult to convict a person for murder if nobody ever found a body or a murder weapon or anything like that...just a motive and arguably a threat?

furthermore...even if the ss was really good at razing gas chambers...I find it difficult to believe that no government knew what was happening until the end of the war. Especially with great Britain having cracked the enigma code...and flying over Germany and bombing concentration camps. How could such a massive operation really be a secret? This is a point that Dalton failed to make and I think he should have.

so yeah...overall I think Dalton won the debate...but i salute the other guy for a good showing and for trying at least to make a coherent argument rather than rely on the taboo of the question.

I can honestly say that whatever amount of skepticism I had for most of my life has only been escalated by some of your posts over time. Basic logic like your reference to claims of dead Jews vs actual population reports before and after WWII should be enough to raise eyebrows of any thinking person.
Coupled with posts CP put up from multiple claims of historic genocide repeatedly amounting to 6 million Jews. Seriously, one has to ask: How many times can 6 million Jews be killed? WWII was just one time in a series of such slaughters.

There was a TV documentary (can't remember who the man was) had an investigator turned away because he wanted to take a small sample of brick mortar to analyze. It could prove the gas chambers were really used if residual elements were found in the porous material. But no, was not to be. Apparently he might prove the opposite and further erode the myth.

Like I said, I have only become even more skeptical over time. A holocaust of a sort to be sure, but exaggerated to myth and legendary status. Seems the "never let a crisis go to waste" is more the case.
 
 

DeezerShoove » 24 May 2023, 11:31 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 11:31 pm

I can honestly say that whatever amount of skepticism I had for most of my life has only been escalated by some of your posts over time. Basic logic like your reference to claims of dead Jews vs actual population reports before and after WWII should be enough to raise eyebrows of any thinking person.
Coupled with posts CP put up from multiple claims of historic genocide repeatedly amounting to 6 million Jews. Seriously, one has to ask: How many times can 6 million Jews be killed? WWII was just one time in a series of such slaughters.

There was a TV documentary (can't remember who the man was) had an investigator turned away because he wanted to take a small sample of brick mortar to analyze. It could prove the gas chambers were really used if residual elements were found in the porous material. But no, was not to be. Apparently he might prove the opposite and further erode the myth.

Like I said, I have only become even more skeptical over time. A holocaust of a sort to be sure, but exaggerated to myth and legendary status. Seems the "never let a crisis go to waste" is more the case.

jews certainly didnt have a lot of fun in that era of germany and some of them certainly died. but the gas chamber stuff is very difficult for me to believe. i believe the intent of nsdap high command was deportation...although they were certainly apathetic if some jews died in the process

FOS » 24 May 2023, 11:34 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 11:34 pm

jews certainly didnt have a lot of fun in that era of germany and some of them certainly died. but the gas chamber stuff is very difficult for me to believe. i believe the intent of nsdap high command was deportation...although they were certainly apathetic if some jews died in the process

And I have seen some of the documentation beyond what you may have mentioned. Germany certainly did scapegoat Jews and seek other countries to take them in. From what I read about, not one country wanted them in any form, be it immigrants or refugees.
Individual Jews were on their own. Many did leave. Most could not.
And deportation without a destination does not work.
 
 
 

DeezerShoove » 24 May 2023, 11:40 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 11:40 pm

And I have seen some of the documentation beyond what you may have mentioned. Germany certainly did scapegoat Jews and seek other countries to take them in. From what I read about, not one country wanted them in any form, be it immigrants or refugees.
Individual Jews were on their own. Many did leave. Most could not.
And deportation without a destination does not work.

well there was the havaara agreement

FOS, have you seen this in its entirety?

With all that is presented in this, I can't wrap my mind around denying that woman and children, not merely Soviet POWs, were executed or died in camps or ghettos. The numbers? They certainly may be inaccurate, but how do you discount survivor testimony, historical documents, photos, as well as Nazi and American military newsreels and documents? Do you believe that the footage of Patton forcing German citizens to view the bodies of men, women and children in the camps, then assisting in their burials to be fraudulent or staged? How could they pull something like that off during that era? And why?
Just asking. Seems overwhelmingly evident to me. But I'm no Nazi historian buff as you are.

Holocaust: Definition, Remembrance & Meaning | HISTORY
 

DeplorablePatriot » 25 May 2023, 12:05 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 12:05 am

FOS, have you seen this in its entirety?

With all that is presented in this, I can't wrap my mind around denying that woman and children, not merely Soviet POWs, were executed or died in camps or ghettos. The numbers? They certainly may be inaccurate, but how to you discount survivor testimony, historical documents, photos, as well as Nazi and American military newsreels and documents? Do you believe that the footage of Patton forcing German citizens to view the bodies of men, women and children in the camps, then assisting in their burials to be fraudulent or staged? How could they pull something like that off during that era? And why?
Just asking. Seems overwhelmingly evident to me. But I'm no Nazi historian buff as you are.

Holocaust: Definition, Remembrance & Meaning | HISTORY

nobody denies that jews died in ww2. that is not the denier position. Many civilians on ALL sides died. the UK immediately started bombing german civilians from the start of the war and 6 months later the germans finally responded in kind.

what revisionists say is simply that there was no plan to exterminate all the jews and particularly not with gas chambers. And the number 6 million is a wild exaggeration.

so...photos of dead jews would no more prove that the germans planned to kill all the jews as photos of dead germans after an allied strike on dresden would prove that the allies wanted to genocide every german...(although the jewish US secretary of the treasury, morganthau, absolutely DID want to). 
 

FOS » 25 May 2023, 12:17 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 12:17 am

nobody denies that jews died in ww2. that is not the denier position. Many civilians on ALL sides died. the UK immediately started bombing german civilians from the start of the war and 6 months later the germans finally responded in kind.

what revisionists say is simply that there was no plan to exterminate all the jews and particularly not with gas chambers. And the number 6 million is a wild exaggeration.

so...photos of dead jews would no more prove that the germans planned to kill all the jews as photos of dead germans after an allied strike on dresden would prove that the allies wanted to genocide every german...(although the jewish US secretary of the treasury, morganthau, absolutely DID want to).

Thanks for the response.   

DeezerShoove » 24 May 2023, 11:40 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 11:40 pm

And I have seen some of the documentation beyond what you may have mentioned. Germany certainly did scapegoat Jews and seek other countries to take them in. From what I read about, not one country wanted them in any form, be it immigrants or refugees.
Individual Jews were on their own. Many did leave. Most could not.
And deportation without a destination does not work.

I would take issue with the term "scapegoat." It implies innocence. 

Jews have been - by their own account - thrown out of 105 countries. Does that imply innocence?
 
 

DeplorablePatriot » 25 May 2023, 12:05 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 12:05 am

FOS, have you seen this in its entirety?

With all that is presented in this, I can't wrap my mind around denying that woman and children, not merely Soviet POWs, were executed or died in camps or ghettos. The numbers? They certainly may be inaccurate, but how do you discount survivor testimony, historical documents, photos, as well as Nazi and American military newsreels and documents? Do you believe that the footage of Patton forcing German citizens to view the bodies of men, women and children in the camps, then assisting in their burials to be fraudulent or staged? How could they pull something like that off during that era? And why?
Just asking. Seems overwhelmingly evident to me. But I'm no Nazi historian buff as you are.

Holocaust: Definition, Remembrance & Meaning | HISTORY

Let me ask you this: Was andersonville a genocide? Because it produced a lot of **** bodies. 
What do you suppose would have been the fate of the japs (and other asians) that we put into concentration camps, if the germans had been bombing our infrastructure, and the boys at the front were short on food and coats and boots? Do you suppose they'd have been reduced to rags, and succumbed to the cold of winter, for example? 

The fact of bodies around a concentration camp in a country devastated by losing a world war is evidence of nothing except that they lost the war. 
 

Cannonpointer » 25 May 2023, 3:05 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 3:05 am

I would take issue with the term "scapegoat." It implies innocence. 

Jew have been - by their own account - thrown out of 105 countries. Does that imply innocence?

Ya know, a guy tries to be nice one time . . .
 

FOS » 24 May 2023, 11:54 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 11:54 pm

well there was the havaara agreement

This is what I mean:
You point out stuff like this that, honestly, I don't have a lot of interest in (much less detailed knowledge) so I check into it a bit. What do I find? All sorts of inter-related conflicts, motives, etc.
I start to want to care a little bit.   

This **** gets pretty messy... No wonder people were pissed off.
Just in this statement, there are six distinct sets of motives:

"The transfer and the boycott, major issues in Jewish political life on the eve of the Holocaust, stood at the crossroads of the contrasts between Polish and German Jewry, the Yishuv and the Diaspora, and the Labor and Revisionist movements."
https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 203231.pdf
 

FOS » 24 May 2023, 10:07 pm » wrote: ↑

24 May 2023, 10:07 pm

There have been some silly attempts to debate this subject in this forum...where nobody is a scholar and few people seem capable of basic logic. Usually the argument for the holocaust relies on the taboo of questioning it. 

Advanced holocaust debate? ssdd. Nothing new here. Just another generation debating dead issues back to life to save humanity from being discovered the source of eternal corruption from within the species itself.

Chain of command in every leaderships demanding every great great grandchild follow tradition beliefs of previous 4 generations or be eliminated from societal outcomes forward by any means necessary to preserve the idea now isn't eternity.

Nobody cries wolf as much as this group. Of course the 6 million figure is bogus.

Izzie is a fake state created and propped up by $$$billions from the West as simply a

military base in the Middle East. We pay for Izzie FREE healthcare & college      

Cons worship a Socialist country.  Now thats funny  
 

...gee willikers, why don't we ask trump and biden and desantis and jfk jr. etc. how many 'were killed' and average....         

... i would think the neo-nazi trumptards here would be particularly silent about any of this ....   
 
 

DeezerShoove » 25 May 2023, 5:56 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 5:56 am

This is what I mean:
You point out stuff like this that, honestly, I don't have a lot of interest in (much less detailed knowledge) so I check into it a bit. What do I find? All sorts of inter-related conflicts, motives, etc.
I start to want to care a little bit.   

This **** gets pretty messy... No wonder people were pissed off.
Just in this statement, there are six distinct sets of motives:

"The transfer and the boycott, major issues in Jewish political life on the eve of the Holocaust, stood at the crossroads of the contrasts between Polish and German Jewry, the Yishuv and the Diaspora, and the Labor and Revisionist movements."
https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 203231.pdf

jews habitually make everything difficult and complicated. the error is every thinking that jewish leadership ever speaks in good faith. they are always adopting opinions for tactical reasons.

No more wars

for the fake state of Jizzy

Sumela » 25 May 2023, 9:03 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 9:03 am

Nobody cries wolf as much as this group. Of course the 6 million figure is bogus.

Izzie is a fake state created and propped up by $$$billions from the West as simply a

military base in the Middle East. We pay for Izzie FREE healthcare & college :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:  

Cons worship a Socialist country.  Now thats funny :die:  
 

same as the 8 billion humans occupying space now?

   

...'the jews'/jewish zionists are nowhere near as problematic as the christian zionists in 'murca whom all you puppet-sucking republicrat monetary ignoramuses empower with your stinking unenlightened 'votes'... wordle...   

FOS » 25 May 2023, 10:38 am » wrote: ↑

25 May 2023, 10:38 am

jews habitually make everything difficult and complicated. the error is every thinking that jewish leadership ever speaks in good faith. they are always adopting opinions for tactical reasons.

 

...same with you/your 'christians', trumptard/desantard/tuckertard [and monetary ignoramus]