Liberal Forum

sootedupCyndi » 27 Jun 2023, 10:58 am » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 10:58 am

I'm curious if anyone has done a study on how these batteries hold up in cold climate states? I've never seen a battery hold up very long in 20 below zero. i wonder about that.

a friend told me of a Ford promotion at the "world's oldest Ford dealership" where sales staff were forced to purchase EVs as a sales pitch...

one sales guy lived 30-40 miles from the dealership. He left home in a fully charged garaged car in -20f weather...a typical morning and drove to work...when he arrived at work, he was at a quarter charge and had to pull it into a wash bay to charge it while at work...he never would have made it back home had he worked anywhere else....
 

impartialobserver » 27 Jun 2023, 11:19 am » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 11:19 am

I do not have the time to dig it up but there has been research on this topic and from what I recall.. they do not do well. In NV.. we have a few more per capita than other states but we also almost never see sub-zero temps. Only the very NE portion (near ID and UT) sees temps that low in some years. If anything, it makes less sense to have one in LV where the power grid is tied to Hoover Dam and other dams on the colorado river which have seen decreasing water volume. In Reno.. we get the snow melt from the Sierras and unlike LV.. we actually have some soil to contain groundwater.

cold and heat are a battery's worst enemy....
 

ROG62 » 27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm

a friend told me of a Ford promotion at the "world's oldest Ford dealership" where sales staff were forced to purchase EVs as a sales pitch...

one sales guy lived 30-40 miles from the dealership. He left home in a fully charged garaged car in -20f weather...a typical morning and drove to work...when he arrived at work, he was at a quarter charge and had to pull it into a wash bay to charge it while at work...he never would have made it back home had he worked anywhere else....

WOW!
 

ROG62 » 27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm

a friend told me of a Ford promotion at the "world's oldest Ford dealership" where sales staff were forced to purchase EVs as a sales pitch...

one sales guy lived 30-40 miles from the dealership. He left home in a fully charged garaged car in -20f weather...a typical morning and drove to work...when he arrived at work, he was at a quarter charge and had to pull it into a wash bay to charge it while at work...he never would have made it back home had he worked anywhere else....

WOW! i expected that. i'll resist.
but at the rate the bs is coming at us- i may not survive another year! serious!  
 

Bruce » 27 Jun 2023, 2:32 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 2:32 pm

I used to make the same argument against electric cars.

The car has no emissions, but a hundred miles away there is a smokestack billowing coal smoke into the air.

But like every other conservative idea I’ve ever supported in my entire life, I was wrong about that, too.

it was my fault. I should have stopped and thought about it more carefully.  Any time you agree with a Fox News talking point, you’re certain to be wrong.

The first place I erred was the electric is about 60% efficient and the gas car 20% efficient.

Which means even if coal is burned to generate the juice, there’s much less fuel used, on the order of three times less fuel.  And in actual practice the electric delivers about a five times cost advantage over gasoline, because the electrics are engineered for maximum range. 

And then, I didn’t consider that like gas cars, the vast majority of electrics will be parked from evening until dawn in a garage or driveway.  The electrics will be charged up mostly during off peak power generation times.
 
At night electricity gets cheap.  The Natgas plants go offline, leaving nuclear, hydro, and wind to feed the grid.

Unlike most Dems I’m a global warning atheist (a skeptic has doubts) and I don’t care what the emissions of anything are.

But that’s a minority opinion and fewer emissions are desirable.  I might be wrong, again.

Here is what you are neglecting to consider:

• Energy that goes into making EV batteries
• Energy loss converting heat into steam and steam into mechanical rotation
• Energy loss stepping up and stepping down electricity over the power grid
• Energy loss in transmission.  Ever hear a "buzz" when walking under large transmission lines?  That's energy loss.
• Energy loss in the charging apparatus.
• Energy loss due to inefficiency of the battery itself.

As for wind turbine energy - Do you have any idea how much a typical grid wind turbine costs? An average sized commercial wind turbine costs $2.6M - $4M, depending on size and where installed.

• They only last for about 3-4 years before they need serious maintenance.  The truth is, they don't typically get maintained.
• Wind Turbines are not very efficient either. And, it takes huge amounts of land to install a wind farm.

 

Time bombs. Small AA batteries explode with great force. We’ve seen what Tesla explosions are like

ROG62 » 27 Jun 2023, 3:26 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 3:26 pm

cold and heat are a battery's worst enemy....

moisture and water set off the explosions

Bruce » 26 Jun 2023, 12:17 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2023, 12:17 pm

The blissful ignorance of MAGA Republicans as to why them there Demorats buy them there lectric cars is something that makes me almost want hang my head in shame I ever held up a sign for Ronald Reagan. Surely we were not such slaves of ignorance then.

Today, this minute, not next year, an electric vehicle costs about three cents a mile to run:

—-
The national average cost of electricity is 10 cents per kWh and 11.7 cents per kWh for residential use. For further comparison, see Idaho National Laboratory’s Advanced Vehicle Testing graph of the energy cost per mile for electric-powered and gasoline-fueled vehicles.

For example, at 10 cents per kWh, an electric vehicle with an efficiency of 3 miles per kWh would have an energy cost of about 3.3 cents per mile. In comparison, a gas-powered vehicle that gets 22 miles per gallon at a fuel cost of $3.50 per gallon would have an energy cost of 15.9 cents per mile
—

Not only is an EV fully five times per mile cheaper to run, it has no gasoline motor or transmission to service or eventually junk because they fail.

Little Republican Johnny was taught to read by the same teachers in the same schools as the rest of us.

He’s not stupid, he’s stubborn.

He refuses to read anything he disagrees with.

Might be some Deep State plot by Dr Fauci, you know?.

All your information is incorrect. 
When I return from vacation, I will tell the real story. You’re very misinformed 

ROG62 » 27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm

a friend told me of a Ford promotion at the "world's oldest Ford dealership" where sales staff were forced to purchase EVs as a sales pitch...

one sales guy lived 30-40 miles from the dealership. He left home in a fully charged garaged car in -20f weather...a typical morning and drove to work...when he arrived at work, he was at a quarter charge and had to pull it into a wash bay to charge it while at work...he never would have made it back home had he worked anywhere else....

Wow. 
 

michaelf » 27 Jun 2023, 11:07 am » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 11:07 am

Someday they might be worth having but not now.

I’m considering one.

Cost really favors electrics now.

A new good, decently trimmed out Suburban is $70,000.

A five year old used one is $35,000.

Ours is perfect, but 18 years old. The newer one have zero meaningful improvements in over 20 years.

Our Suburban will run 400 miles and fill up in a few minutes, for about $100.

A new electric SUV will cost half of $70,000, and run 200 miles and charge up in 30 minutes for $6.

Our Suburban has had a replacement engine ($1,500) and rebuilt transmission ($1,500).  The electric wouldn’t ever need that.

Of we paid $70,000 for a new Suburban in ten years not a soul would want it.  Hey buddy, want a 15 mpg dinosaur it’s hard to buy gas for, or a used electric model?

Yet we are spoiled with not even thinking about where to  buy fuel.  

Inside my old gray head, I can remember seeing the first unleaded gasoline pump about November 1974, just one, outside a Walmart.  There was a 1975 car filling up at it.

It was not too many years, before you couldn’t buy leaded gasoline.

I’m making a prediction right now.

The last gasoline vehicle, will be a Jeep Wrangler.

 

They enjoy catching fire as well. Probably more than Pintos did. Lithium makes great fires.
Not nearly enough infrastructure for EVs. Infrastructure BEFORE EVs, ****.
What about Battery hazardous waste when they die? Is everything recyclable?
When EV batteries die, nobody wants to buy the car due to the cost of a new battery pack. Resale sucks hind tit. Why take it up the *** later by buying one?
EVs are causing gas tax revenue to decline, so cities are thinking of other ways for people to keep the tax revenue flowing. So, save the environment and money? Hahaha! 
EVs =   

sootedupCyndi » 27 Jun 2023, 9:49 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 9:49 pm

Wow.

I keep hoping and searching for maybe, just one conservative idea I’ve ever held to be correct.

Surely just one thing, the old men in the barbershop say they heard on Fox News, just has to be true.

Alas, MAGA is inevitably wrong, every time, a perfect record of error.

——Some owners, though, didn’t anticipate such a big decline in the winter. **** Bhimani, who lives in a northern suburb of Detroit, said he sees about 30% lower range in his Tesla Model Y when the weather gets cold, from what’s supposed to be 330 miles per charge to as low as 230. “They should clarify that one,” he said while charging just south of Ann Arbor on a trip to Chicago.
 Around three-quarters of this EV range loss is due to keeping occupants warm, but speed and even freeway driving are factors. Some drivers go to great lengths not to use much heat so they can travel farther, wearing gloves or sitting on heated seats to save energy.
 And to be sure, gasoline engines also can lose around 15% of their range in the cold.
 The range loss has not slowed EV adoption in Norway, where nearly 80% of new vehicle sales were electric last year.

 Recent tests by the Norwegian Automobile Federation found models really vary. The relatively affordable Maxus Euniq6 came the closest to its advertised range and was named the winner. It finished only about 10% short of its advertised 354 km (220 mile) range. The Tesla S was about 16% percent under its advertised range. At the bottom: Toyota’s BZ4X, which topped out at only 323 kilometers (200 miles), nearly 36% below its advertised range.
 Nils Soedal, from the Automobile Federation, calls the issue “unproblematic” as long as drivers take it into account when planning a trip. “The big issue really is to get enough charging stations along the road,” and better information on whether they’re working properly, he said——

My wife and I used to take long winter trips in an Expedition to Western South Dakota to see her family, about twenty years ago.

Driving north towards Sioux Falls, the mileage computer would read up to 17 mpg.

Turn West into 20 below temperatures against a strong headwind and you could see it start falling down to 13, then 12, and 11, and outside was like the surface of the moon, not one light on the horizon anywhere.

She and the kids would sleep and I knew, that if anything broke it was going to be a rather serious situation.

Sometimes gas stations were fifty miles apart.

 

Bruce » 27 Jun 2023, 10:53 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 10:53 pm

I keep hoping and searching for maybe, just one conservative idea I’ve ever held to be correct.

Surely just one thing, the old men in the barbershop say they heard on Fox News, just has to be true.

Alas, MAGA is inevitably wrong, every time, a perfect record of error.

——Some owners, though, didn’t anticipate such a big decline in the winter. **** Bhimani, who lives in a northern suburb of Detroit, said he sees about 30% lower range in his Tesla Model Y when the weather gets cold, from what’s supposed to be 330 miles per charge to as low as 230. “They should clarify that one,” he said while charging just south of Ann Arbor on a trip to Chicago.
 Around three-quarters of this EV range loss is due to keeping occupants warm, but speed and even freeway driving are factors. Some drivers go to great lengths not to use much heat so they can travel farther, wearing gloves or sitting on heated seats to save energy.
 And to be sure, gasoline engines also can lose around 15% of their range in the cold.
 The range loss has not slowed EV adoption in Norway, where nearly 80% of new vehicle sales were electric last year.

 Recent tests by the Norwegian Automobile Federation found models really vary. The relatively affordable Maxus Euniq6 came the closest to its advertised range and was named the winner. It finished only about 10% short of its advertised 354 km (220 mile) range. The Tesla S was about 16% percent under its advertised range. At the bottom: Toyota’s BZ4X, which topped out at only 323 kilometers (200 miles), nearly 36% below its advertised range.
 Nils Soedal, from the Automobile Federation, calls the issue “unproblematic” as long as drivers take it into account when planning a trip. “The big issue really is to get enough charging stations along the road,” and better information on whether they’re working properly, he said——

My wife and I used to take long winter trips in an Expedition to Western South Dakota to see her family, about twenty years ago.

Driving north towards Sioux Falls, the mileage computer would read up to 17 mpg.

Turn West into 20 below temperatures against a strong headwind and you could see it start falling down to 13, then 12, and 11, and outside was like the surface of the moon, not one light on the horizon anywhere.

She and the kids would sleep and I knew, that if anything broke it was going to be a rather serious situation.

Sometimes gas stations were fifty miles apart.

We're a very rural state. Cold. There is ONE charging station for miles... I always think of things in a real life disaster situation. Not a utopia made up in ones mind.
If a person did NOT have a charging station in their garage. Sit at one somewhere?  In the freezing cold until you're charged up?
BTW- you are too obsessed with FOX. 
Trump/Tucker 2024 !!!!!!
 

Bruce » 26 Jun 2023, 12:17 pm » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2023, 12:17 pm

The blissful ignorance of MAGA Republicans as to why them there Demorats buy them there lectric cars is something that makes me almost want hang my head in shame I ever held up a sign for Ronald Reagan. Surely we were not such slaves of ignorance then.

Today, this minute, not next year, an electric vehicle costs about three cents a mile to run:

—-
The national average cost of electricity is 10 cents per kWh and 11.7 cents per kWh for residential use. For further comparison, see Idaho National Laboratory’s Advanced Vehicle Testing graph of the energy cost per mile for electric-powered and gasoline-fueled vehicles.

For example, at 10 cents per kWh, an electric vehicle with an efficiency of 3 miles per kWh would have an energy cost of about 3.3 cents per mile. In comparison, a gas-powered vehicle that gets 22 miles per gallon at a fuel cost of $3.50 per gallon would have an energy cost of 15.9 cents per mile
—

Not only is an EV fully five times per mile cheaper to run, it has no gasoline motor or transmission to service or eventually junk because they fail.

Little Republican Johnny was taught to read by the same teachers in the same schools as the rest of us.

He’s not stupid, he’s stubborn.

He refuses to read anything he disagrees with.

Might be some Deep State plot by Dr Fauci, you know?.

You need to read up on the entire life cycle of an EV vs conventional vehicle.
All the pros and cons of both.

Cherry picking makes anything seem wonderful. Or terrible.
Depends on the ox being gored.

DeplorablePatriot » 27 Jun 2023, 10:41 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 10:41 pm

They enjoy catching fire as well. Probably more than Pintos did. Lithium makes great fires.
Not nearly enough infrastructure for EVs. Infrastructure BEFORE EVs, ****.
What about Battery hazardous waste when they die? Is everything recyclable?
When EV batteries die, nobody wants to buy the car due to the cost of a new battery pack. Resale sucks hind tit. Why take it up the *** later by buying one?
EVs are causing gas tax revenue to decline, so cities are thinking of other ways for people to keep the tax revenue flowing. So, save the environment and money? Hahaha! 
EVs = 

In the next ten years the declining  revenues from fuel taxes will more or less force the government (during an election off year and while taking a swipe at  Gimmiedats and welfare queens and Mexican immigrants) to replace the revenue with a tax on public charging stations, at least.  Maybe they’ll tax the home charging stations.

The present cost of gasoline is about $3 and of that fifty cents is tax.  Electrics operate on five times less “fuel” than gas cars.  Can’t you imagine the bitching, pissing, whining and moaning about the end of the world we’ll have to endure for a month or two after the taxes are placed?

But electrics are coming.  A five times less operation cost plus cheaper purchase price means they are going to be the dominant transportation in ten years, or less:

—-A wave of new planned electric vehicle battery plants will increase North America’s battery manufacturing capacity from 55 Gigawatt-hours per year (GWh/year) in 2021 to nearly 1,000 GWh/year by 2030. Most of the announced battery plant projects are scheduled to begin production between 2025 and 2030. By 2030, this production capacity will be capable of supporting the manufacture of roughly 10 to 13 million all-electric vehicles per year.
 To optimize supply chain logistics, many battery plants will be co-located with automotive plants. Most of the planned projects in the United States are concentrated along a north-south band from Michigan to Alabama. Based on current plans, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, and Michigan will see the highest growth in battery manufacturing capacity.
—-

A lot of those old men’s children and grandchildren will work in the battery plants, or wind turbine plants.

They’ll complain the youngsters are overpaid.

While they charge up the family buggy to go visit the grandchildren.

Bruce » 27 Jun 2023, 11:15 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 11:15 pm

In the next ten years the declining  revenues from fuel taxes will more or less force the government (during an election off year and while taking a swipe at  Gimmiedats and welfare queens and Mexican immigrants) to replace the revenue with a tax on public charging stations, at least.  Maybe they’ll tax the home charging stations.

The present cost of gasoline is about $3 and of that fifty cents is tax.  Electrics operate on five times less “fuel” than gas cars.  Can’t you imagine the bitching, pissing, whining and moaning about the end of the world we’ll have to endure for a month or two after the taxes are placed?

But electrics are coming.  A five times less operation cost plus cheaper purchase price means they are going to be the dominant transportation in ten years, or less:

—-A wave of new planned electric vehicle battery plants will increase North America’s battery manufacturing capacity from 55 Gigawatt-hours per year (GWh/year) in 2021 to nearly 1,000 GWh/year by 2030. Most of the announced battery plant projects are scheduled to begin production between 2025 and 2030. By 2030, this production capacity will be capable of supporting the manufacture of roughly 10 to 13 million all-electric vehicles per year.
 To optimize supply chain logistics, many battery plants will be co-located with automotive plants. Most of the planned projects in the United States are concentrated along a north-south band from Michigan to Alabama. Based on current plans, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, and Michigan will see the highest growth in battery manufacturing capacity.
—-

A lot of those old men’s children and grandchildren will work in the battery plants, or wind turbine plants.

They’ll complain the youngsters are overpaid.

While they charge up the family buggy to go visit the grandchildren.

"A wave."
"Planned." 
"Coming"
"In the next ten years."
Great, you give forecasts! 

All your pro EV **** is as gold as Horse faced Kerry has said it himself.   

Oh, and you didn't address the negative concerns which are ongoing. Not forecasted.    

Bruce » 27 Jun 2023, 10:53 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 10:53 pm

I keep hoping and searching for maybe, just one conservative idea I’ve ever held to be correct.

Surely just one thing, the old men in the barbershop say they heard on Fox News, just has to be true.

Alas, MAGA is inevitably wrong, every time, a perfect record of error.

——Some owners, though, didn’t anticipate such a big decline in the winter. **** Bhimani, who lives in a northern suburb of Detroit, said he sees about 30% lower range in his Tesla Model Y when the weather gets cold, from what’s supposed to be 330 miles per charge to as low as 230. “They should clarify that one,” he said while charging just south of Ann Arbor on a trip to Chicago.
 Around three-quarters of this EV range loss is due to keeping occupants warm, but speed and even freeway driving are factors. Some drivers go to great lengths not to use much heat so they can travel farther, wearing gloves or sitting on heated seats to save energy.
 And to be sure, gasoline engines also can lose around 15% of their range in the cold.
 The range loss has not slowed EV adoption in Norway, where nearly 80% of new vehicle sales were electric last year.

 Recent tests by the Norwegian Automobile Federation found models really vary. The relatively affordable Maxus Euniq6 came the closest to its advertised range and was named the winner. It finished only about 10% short of its advertised 354 km (220 mile) range. The Tesla S was about 16% percent under its advertised range. At the bottom: Toyota’s BZ4X, which topped out at only 323 kilometers (200 miles), nearly 36% below its advertised range.
 Nils Soedal, from the Automobile Federation, calls the issue “unproblematic” as long as drivers take it into account when planning a trip. “The big issue really is to get enough charging stations along the road,” and better information on whether they’re working properly, he said——

My wife and I used to take long winter trips in an Expedition to Western South Dakota to see her family, about twenty years ago.

Driving north towards Sioux Falls, the mileage computer would read up to 17 mpg.

Turn West into 20 below temperatures against a strong headwind and you could see it start falling down to 13, then 12, and 11, and outside was like the surface of the moon, not one light on the horizon anywhere.

She and the kids would sleep and I knew, that if anything broke it was going to be a rather serious situation.

Sometimes gas stations were fifty miles apart.

Remember people...all of this oral, projectile diarrhea is from a Biden voter, the most inept, corrupt, senile POTUS in history. Take it with a cave of salt.   
 

ROG62 » 27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 3:22 pm

a friend told me of a Ford promotion at the "world's oldest Ford dealership" where sales staff were forced to purchase EVs as a sales pitch...

one sales guy lived 30-40 miles from the dealership. He left home in a fully charged garaged car in -20f weather...a typical morning and drove to work...when he arrived at work, he was at a quarter charge and had to pull it into a wash bay to charge it while at work...he never would have made it back home had he worked anywhere else....

I'd rather ride a cow and have John Kerry bitch about my cow's farts.

sootedupCyndi » 27 Jun 2023, 11:09 pm » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2023, 11:09 pm

We're a very rural state. Cold. There is ONE charging station for miles... I always think of things in a real life disaster situation. Not a utopia made up in ones mind.
If a person did NOT have a charging station in their garage. Sit at one somewhere?  In the freezing cold until you're charged up?
BTW- you are too obsessed with FOX. 
Trump/Tucker 2024 !!!!!!

In this great and free nation of ours, we are free to sin, and get rich off sinners.

Seriously, it’s a great nation when men can get rich making beer, bourbon, gambling casinos, chewing gum  soda pop and candy bars, none of which we “need” but all of which frail human nature craves.

It fascinates me Rupert Murdoch gets rich playing to all the darker angels of fear, hatred, loathing, and I ignorance ordinary Americans seem to crave.  Fox is an 24/7 version of the National Enquirer or World Daily News. It’s almost all lies, exaggerations and fear mongering and a pandering to every base instinct of mankind. If there was ever a shooting war the government would have to shut it down on day one. 

The Reaganites like I was, were truly conservative.  What we did we did with good intentions for noble goals .
We were idealists.  And we were sure the new computers and cell phones and fax machines of the eighties would soon be in every home, and we were right about that.

Think, of the power Murdock wields that Joesph Goebells could only dream of.

His listeners have zero desire to fact check anything he publishes.  They get livid when told the truth.


In just a couple or three years every car dealership in America will have rows of electrics that cost less than gasoline models and operate for one fifth as much.

They will out perform late sixties muscle cars.

Every place we buy gas today will have fast Class 3 chargers.

Remember, that Fox got lots of mileage hating on new LED light bulbs, and today there’s not a market for anything else.

They’ll advertise electrics, and claim the Gimmiedats are out to destroy the electric car industry by putting a road tax on the chargers.


 

Bruce » 28 Jun 2023, 12:47 am » wrote: ↑

28 Jun 2023, 12:47 am

In this great and free nation of ours, we are free to sin, and get rich off sinners.

Seriously, it’s a great nation when men can get rich making beer, bourbon, gambling casinos, chewing gum  soda pop and candy bars, none of which we “need” but all of which frail human nature craves.

It fascinates me Rupert Murdoch gets rich playing to all the darker angels of fear, hatred, loathing, and I ignorance ordinary Americans seem to crave.  Fox is an 24/7 version of the National Enquirer or World Daily News. It’s almost all lies, exaggerations and fear mongering and a pandering to every base instinct of mankind. If there was ever a shooting war the government would have to shut it down on day one. 

The Reaganites like I was, were truly conservative.  What we did we did with good intentions for noble goals .
We were idealists.  And we were sure the new computers and cell phones and fax machines of the eighties would soon be in every home, and we were right about that.

Think, of the power Murdock wields that Joesph Goebells could only dream of.

His listeners have zero desire to fact check anything he publishes.  They get livid when told the truth.

In just a couple or three years every car dealership in America will have rows of electrics that cost less than gasoline models and operate for one fifth as much.

They will out perform late sixties muscle cars.

Every place we buy gas today will have fast Class 3 chargers.

Remember, that Fox got lots of mileage hating on new LED light bulbs, and today there’s not a market for anything else.

They’ll advertise electrics, and claim the Gimmiedats are out to destroy the electric car industry by putting a road tax on the chargers.

I got an idea what you can do with those curly light bulbs.