Liberal Forum

with a national income tax, you are taxed before you use you labor money. and congress has total control over you. with a nation sales tax. you control your labor money. do not spend. you are not taxed. and with a national sales tax, all imports are taxed. plus, congress has a problem with funding wars. once congress is told to start a war, the people can stop buying.

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 3:14 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 3:14 am

with a national income tax, you are taxed before you use you labor money. and congress has total control over you. with a nation sales tax. you control your labor money. do not spend. you are not taxed. and with a national sales tax, all imports are taxed. plus, congress has a problem with funding wars. once congress is told to start a war, the people can stop buying.

Conservatives have loved the idea of a national sales tax all of my life.

First, to do that, you should take every member of the current IRS and execute them all or else you’d wind up with a new sales tax on top of an old income tax.  

Second, most of Europe uses a variety of national sales tax called VAT.  And VAT puts a higher tax burden on the people than an income tax does.  The reason is, all working people hate an income tax. Raise it one tenth of one per cent and they’ll scream SOCIALISM!  But they never make a peep when a sales tax gets raised.

With an income tax, most old people, and all the children, don’t pay it.  A sales tax guarantees instant inflation of however many per cent it is.  A retired person with $100,000 in the bank has 10% less the day after a 10% national sales tax.

But the killer reason to not have a national sales tax, is they would have to exempt stocks and bonds and real estate and major purchases such as trucks, cars, and heavy machinery.  Otherwise you’d kill sales of those.  
Over in Europe they pay about twice in sales tax as we pay income tax.  

Leave it alone.

The income tax is the least bad tax.

 

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 5:56 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 5:56 am

Conservatives have loved the idea of a national sales tax all of my life.

First, to do that, you should take every member of the current IRS and execute them all or else you’d wind up with a new sales tax on top of an old income tax.  

Second, most of Europe uses a variety of national sales tax called VAT.  And VAT puts a higher tax burden on the people than an income tax does.  The reason is, all working people hate an income tax. Raise it one tenth of one per cent and they’ll scream SOCIALISM!  But they never make a peep when a sales tax gets raised.

With an income tax, most old people, and all the children, don’t pay it.  A sales tax guarantees instant inflation of however many per cent it is.  A retired person with $100,000 in the bank has 10% less the day after a 10% national sales tax.

But the killer reason to not have a national sales tax, is they would have to exempt stocks and bonds and real estate and major purchases such as trucks, cars, and heavy machinery.  Otherwise you’d kill sales of those.  
Over in Europe they pay about twice in sales tax as we pay income tax.  

Leave it alone.

The income tax is the least bad tax.

VAT is NOT a "sales tax" ****. It is a "value added" tax that puts a TAX on everything made at every stage of production, or "value added" during that construction. Yes, that cost is passed to CONSUMERS. HOWEVER, it does NOT replace any INCOME TAX also being paid, **** like a NATIONAL SALES TAX WOULD DO!!

Fact is, a national Sales Tax means YOU control if you pay tax or not by CONTROLLING YOUR PURCHASES. An INCOME TAX, you don't. And a NATIONAL SALES TAX means you can't write in "deductions" for a bunch of whiny *** liberals who can't fathom "taxing the rich" like YOUR SIDE DOES CONSTANTLY and then whines even more that "the rich don't pay their fair share" when it's YOUR SIDE that wrote in the tax exemptions for their RICH DONORS in the first place!!

Beekeeper » 12 Jul 2023, 6:05 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 6:05 am

VAT is NOT a "sales tax" ****. It is a "value added" tax that puts a TAX on everything made at every stage of production, or "value added" during that construction. Yes, that cost is passed to CONSUMERS. HOWEVER, it does NOT replace any INCOME TAX also being paid, **** like a NATIONAL SALES TAX WOULD DO!!

Fact is, a national Sales Tax means YOU control if you pay tax or not by CONTROLLING YOUR PURCHASES. An INCOME TAX, you don't. And a NATIONAL SALES TAX means you can't write in "deductions" for a bunch of whiny *** liberals who can't fathom "taxing the rich" like YOUR SIDE DOES CONSTANTLY and then whines even more that "the rich don't pay their fair share" when it's YOUR SIDE that wrote in the tax exemptions for their RICH DONORS in the first place!!

VAT is a hidden sales tax.  Which is another reason politicians in Europe get away with it.

What frosts conservatives is poor blacks and browns don’t pay much if any income tax. They never stop to think a sales tax busts little old white ladies like their grandmothers the hardest.

And conservatism means, don’t change it, go slow, we don’t want to break anything, or at least it used to mean that.

We need to raise the income tax, to where government takes in more than it spends.  Otherwise we have deficits.  

The last time there was a meaningful increase in income taxes was 1993. It did balance the budget.  And it destroyed the Democrats who voted for it, and never again.

To replace the income we now get from income tax, which is not enough to balance the budget, imagine how high that sales tax would have to be?

 
 

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 3:14 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 3:14 am

with a national income tax, you are taxed before you use you labor money. and congress has total control over you. with a nation sales tax. you control your labor money. do not spend. you are not taxed. and with a national sales tax, all imports are taxed. plus, congress has a problem with funding wars. once congress is told to start a war, the people can stop buying.

Only way I would support such a concept is the national sales tax is never more than 15% anyone's personal income alone with out of that 15% gets divided into 6% federal, 4 % state, 2% county, 1 % city, 2% education k-12.

College isn't necessary except to create psychlogical class warfare each generation replacing previous 4.

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 5:56 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 5:56 am

Conservatives have loved the idea of a national sales tax all of my life.

First, to do that, you should take every member of the current IRS and execute them all or else you’d wind up with a new sales tax on top of an old income tax.  

Second, most of Europe uses a variety of national sales tax called VAT.  And VAT puts a higher tax burden on the people than an income tax does.  The reason is, all working people hate an income tax. Raise it one tenth of one per cent and they’ll scream SOCIALISM!  But they never make a peep when a sales tax gets raised.

With an income tax, most old people, and all the children, don’t pay it.  A sales tax guarantees instant inflation of however many per cent it is.  A retired person with $100,000 in the bank has 10% less the day after a 10% national sales tax.

But the killer reason to not have a national sales tax, is they would have to exempt stocks and bonds and real estate and major purchases such as trucks, cars, and heavy machinery.  Otherwise you’d kill sales of those.  
Over in Europe they pay about twice in sales tax as we pay income tax.  

Leave it alone.

The income tax is the least bad tax.

 

Hey idiot, National sales tax is charged on purchasing finished products on the market place. Doesn't mean taxing everything other than food raw material through each processing step to have products for sale.

This doesn't eliminate profit sharing alone the way as each step makes a profit converting raw materials to consumable results everyone needs to survive socially.

That is capitalism not capitalizing off everyone else governed by the need to know narrative inside social engineering until extinction of the species genetically limited to eternally separated as reproductively here.

Where do you think runaway inflation comes from but central authority.

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am

VAT is a hidden sales tax.  Which is another reason politicians in Europe get away with it.

What frosts conservatives is poor blacks and browns don’t pay much if any income tax. They never stop to think a sales tax busts little old white ladies like their grandmothers the hardest.

And conservatism means, don’t change it, go slow, we don’t want to break anything, or at least it used to mean that.

We need to raise the income tax, to where government takes in more than it spends.  Otherwise we have deficits.  

The last time there was a meaningful increase in income taxes was 1993. It did balance the budget.  And it destroyed the Democrats who voted for it, and never again.

To replace the income we now get from income tax, which is not enough to balance the budget, imagine how high that sales tax would have to be?

The TWO THINGS you failed to bring into the equation is....

1. INCOMES of people will INCREASE since there is NO LONGER any payroll taxes being deducted. That INCREASES  what people have to spend.
2. There is NO LONGER any "hidden taxes" in the prices of goods and services since the INCOME TAXES on business also disappears and prices COME DOWN as those taxes are ELIMINATED. Simple competition will reduce prices as once ONE does it, everyone follows suit to stay competitive.

I have always favored a national sales tax over the income tax...primarily because the income tax does not tax illegal income or cash income. However, in order to not make it overly burdensome on the lower income families, it would need to have some nuance (and probably a higher rate than some would guess).

Lower income families need to eat...so "basic" food items (lower price cuts of meat, produce, etc.) should be exempt but things like truffles, lobster, Wagyu, etc. should be taxed. Unless people live in a major urban area with mass transit (northeast, SF, etc.) the "lower end" vehicles should not be taxed, but add the tax to Bentley, Land Rover, Bugatti, etc. Some considerations would need to be made for clothing (and probably other things). We could also basically eliminate the IRS as every state already has the mechanism to collect sales tax and distribute to the various authorities.

It will never happen. There are too many on both sides of the aisle who cannot get past the old talking points to actually listen to any proposal.

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 3:14 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 3:14 am

with a national income tax, you are taxed before you use you labor money. and congress has total control over you. with a nation sales tax. you control your labor money. do not spend. you are not taxed. and with a national sales tax, all imports are taxed. plus, congress has a problem with funding wars. once congress is told to start a war, the people can stop buying.

I am all for a national sales tax as a complete replacement to: income tax, tax on capital gains and tax on dividends.
 

while were add it. clean up the national debt. the old people created the national debt. at death, use their assets to help reduce the national debt. it is a crime to give their assets to others, and avoid paying their deb. they should pay part of their national debt before anyone gets a cent!

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 8:25 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 8:25 am

while were add it. clean up the national debt. the old people created the national debt. at death, use their assets to help reduce the national debt. it is a crime to give their assets to others, and avoid paying their deb. they should pay part of their national debt before anyone gets a cent!

also take the old people social security checks. use the money to help pay for their national debt they created. it is a crime for the old bastards to give their debts to the children and then require the children to help fund their social security. down with the old.  take their money, and put them in  flop houses, hose them down once a week. 

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 8:25 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 8:25 am

while were add it. clean up the national debt. the old people created the national debt. at death, use their assets to help reduce the national debt. it is a crime to give their assets to others, and avoid paying their deb. they should pay part of their national debt before anyone gets a cent!

**** again. You destroy personal incentive to pull one's own weight because those that do get what they earned for their replacements left behind better off than those never working to stay in balance of eternal separation in plain sight.

Next you will be debating fairness, what a hoax that is evolving in series parallel time living never exceeded adapting to the moment here for any reproduction native to this atmosphere.

No exceptions or exemptions by will of the people demanding rights to ignore how they exist in the first place.

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 5:56 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 5:56 am

Conservatives have loved the idea of a national sales tax all of my life.

First, to do that, you should take every member of the current IRS and execute them all or else you’d wind up with a new sales tax on top of an old income tax.  

Second, most of Europe uses a variety of national sales tax called VAT.  And VAT puts a higher tax burden on the people than an income tax does.  The reason is, all working people hate an income tax. Raise it one tenth of one per cent and they’ll scream SOCIALISM!  But they never make a peep when a sales tax gets raised.

With an income tax, most old people, and all the children, don’t pay it.  A sales tax guarantees instant inflation of however many per cent it is.  A retired person with $100,000 in the bank has 10% less the day after a 10% national sales tax.

But the killer reason to not have a national sales tax, is they would have to exempt stocks and bonds and real estate and major purchases such as trucks, cars, and heavy machinery.  Otherwise you’d kill sales of those.  
Over in Europe they pay about twice in sales tax as we pay income tax.  

Leave it alone.

The income tax is the least bad tax.

It appears you have a failure of imagination. We have options other than mass murder if we get rid of the income tax. 

Sales tax can be rolled into a car loan as easily as the original purchase price. No one has to rat himself out or waive his 4th Amendment privacy rights to pay a sales tax. The wealthy cannot duck a sales tax as they can and do an income tax. The underground economy (drugs, prostitution, human trafficking, working under the table) cannot duck a national sales tax. And your claim that major purchases would be exempted is entirely made up. 

The national income tax is NOTHING like a VAT tax, as a VAT tax starts at the BEGINNING of the production cycle and a sales tax is applies at the very end. The VAT tax is utterly regressive - a national sales tax as uniformly presented by its advocates is progressive, as it prebates the working poor and the low income.

Your kind are so easily manipulated by rich men's talking points filtered through the Atlantic Council down to whatever pedestrian outlets you are misinformed by. 

A national sales tax would be accompanied by a prebate for those beneath a certain percentage of the poverty line (typically 150% in most manifestations) - the most stimulative thing we can possible do for the economy - and every version of a national sales tax ever put forth includes that provision. A national sales tax would be highly stimulative, would sweep up hundreds of billions or trillions from tax dodgers, would disproportionately affect the wealthy, and would not touch a hair of the working poor's prebated heads. 

That is why it will never happen, you goo faced moron. 
 
 

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am

VAT is a hidden sales tax.  
 

VAT is neither hidden nor a sales tax, you propagandized fool.

The VAT requires fabricatorators to pay the government before they sell their wares - and this adds COST. They must profit on that COST, which raises the price to wholesalers. Wholesalers then pay a VAT, on which they must profit when they sell to retailers. Retailers pay a VAT on which they must profit. It's a very destructive tax that inflates the cost of every purchase. 

A national sales tax is APPENDED, not prepended. Try to learn to reason, you twat.
 

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am

We need to raise the income tax, to where government takes in more than it spends.  Otherwise we have deficits.  
 

Cutting spending would have the same effect, tard. Try to learn to reason. 
 

Beekeeper » 12 Jul 2023, 6:55 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 6:55 am

The TWO THINGS you failed to bring into the equation is....

1. INCOMES of people will INCREASE since there is NO LONGER any payroll taxes being deducted. That INCREASES  what people have to spend.
2. There is NO LONGER any "hidden taxes" in the prices of goods and services since the INCOME TAXES on business also disappears and prices COME DOWN as those taxes are ELIMINATED. Simple competition will reduce prices as once ONE does it, everyone follows suit to stay competitive.

The monies that companies spend on paying their and their employees' taxes is the real hidden tax the fool keeps yammering about.
 

ConsRule » 12 Jul 2023, 7:06 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 7:06 am

I have always favored a national sales tax over the income tax...primarily because the income tax does not tax illegal income or cash income. However, in order to not make it overly burdensome on the lower income families, it would need to have some nuance (and probably a higher rate than some would guess).

Lower income families need to eat...so "basic" food items (lower price cuts of meat, produce, etc.) should be exempt but things like truffles, lobster, Wagyu, etc. should be taxed. Unless people live in a major urban area with mass transit (northeast, SF, etc.) the "lower end" vehicles should not be taxed, but add the tax to Bentley, Land Rover, Bugatti, etc. Some considerations would need to be made for clothing (and probably other things). We could also basically eliminate the IRS as every state already has the mechanism to collect sales tax and distribute to the various authorities.

It will never happen. There are too many on both sides of the aisle who cannot get past the old talking points to actually listen to any proposal.

For the record, every version of a national sales tax ever devised includes a prebate to those who qualify. THEY STILL HAVE TO PAY THEIR TAX ON PURCHASES (except those basic food items rightly exempted, as you point out). But they get a quarterly prebate which will be highly stimulative to the economy.
 

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 8:25 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 8:25 am

while were add it. clean up the national debt. the old people created the national debt. at death, use their assets to help reduce the national debt. it is a crime to give their assets to others, and avoid paying their deb. they should pay part of their national debt before anyone gets a cent!

NOW you've heated up the thread. You just pissed off BOTH camps. Well done. 
 

walkingstick » 12 Jul 2023, 8:31 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 8:31 am

also take the old people social security checks. use the money to help pay for their national debt they created. it is a crime for the old bastards to give their debts to the children and then require the children to help fund their social security. down with the old.  take their money, and put them in  flop houses, hose them down once a week.

One a week is rather shabby treatment. You've confiscated their assets and deprived them of their comforts. You can't hose them down two or three time a week, FFS?
 

Bruce » 12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am » wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2023, 6:27 am

To replace the income we now get from income tax, which is not enough to balance the budget, imagine how high that sales tax would have to be?

Most versions are at 20%.

But a univariant analysis is the work of a lazy and unimaginative mind such as yours.

What you fail to register is the stimulative effects of the quarterly prebates, the windfall from taxing the underground economy, the windfall from FINALLY taxing the wealthy, and the enormous savings from ending the bureaucratic nightmare to which companies are subjected.

You are a midwit AT BEST. If you could just argue well, being wrong would not be so shameful.