Liberal Forum

If Palestine has some historical reason to be forced upon the modern world as a valid geo-political area and people, even to the point of going back into biblical times to bolster that reasoning, why isn't Ukraine considered in the same manner?

Kiev is significantly older than Moscow, after all.

. . . no takers . . .

DeezerShoove » 27 Jun 2024, 6:47 am » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2024, 6:47 am

. . . no takers . . .

Most Russians aren't Jews?
 

I'd go for Ucrane women.

lard » 27 Jun 2024, 7:53 am » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2024, 7:53 am

I'd go for Ucrane women.

Most are dead are fled to Poland...  

This feels like a Sole thread that someone wound around themselves.

Sumela » 27 Jun 2024, 10:16 am » wrote: ↑

27 Jun 2024, 10:16 am

This feels like a Sole thread that someone wound around themselves.

There was one attempt at an answer. Yours is a dance.

So...apparently...

1) Ukraine was originally not Russian.
2) Palestine was originally its own entity.

So both "battles for freedom/sovereignty" are equally valid.

Or is it the other way around?
Both are manufactured wars to save "empires" so-to-speak.
Israel and Russia need to take care of the thorns...

How can they be opposites of each other?
One fighting oppression/genocide and the other claiming its land/people back...
Which one am I referring to?
 

DeezerShoove » 26 Jun 2024, 10:06 am » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2024, 10:06 am

If Palestine has some historical reason to be forced upon the modern world as a valid geo-political area and people, even to the point of going back into biblical times to bolster that reasoning, why isn't Ukraine considered in the same manner?

Kiev is significantly older than Moscow, after all.

The thing is, ukranians and Russians are not really different.

and in fact...the longer away in time something is, the less relevant to the current era. Things change. People change. 

It is a bit silly for ukranians to think they are not Russians because really they are.

But certainly palestinians are not jews.
 

FOS » 29 Jun 2024, 11:13 pm » wrote: ↑

29 Jun 2024, 11:13 pm

The thing is, ukranians and Russians are not really different.

and in fact...the longer away in time something is, the less relevant to the current era. Things change. People change. 

It is a bit silly for ukranians to think they are not Russians because really they are.

But certainly palestinians are not jews.

"the longer away in time something is, the less relevant to the current era."

That is sort of my basic theme. I'm glad you see that aspect as relevant.

The argument has been made multiple times that there are many "ethnic" Russians in Ukraine.
Ukes are trashing them, so Russia gets to beat the Ukes up a bit.
Not only that they get to keep the part of the Ukrainian sovereign land that they want.
All this basically because some farmers speak Russian from what I gather.

Your "Palis vs Jews" comment basically speaks to the notion that Jews are a race first and a religion second.

Thanks for your insight.

DeezerShoove » 26 Jun 2024, 10:06 am » wrote: ↑

26 Jun 2024, 10:06 am

If Palestine has some historical reason to be forced upon the modern world as a valid geo-political area and people, even to the point of going back into biblical times to bolster that reasoning,

False premise. You are precisely reversing the argument being made for the state of israel and pretending it is the argument for a palestinian state. 

Thread resolved. 

Cannonpointer » 30 Jun 2024, 8:45 am » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 8:45 am

False premise. You are precisely reversing the argument being made for the state of israel and pretending it is the argument for a palestinian state. 

Thread resolved.

It's not my intention to reframe anything at all.
I merely stated my impression of what's already out there in some minds for the sake of generating discussion.

I see many contradictory false premi.
When comparing the two "conflicts" I find it a tad confusing that arguments for one,
then the other, CAN be apparently reversed.
At least by the flock pushing their particular cause (or butthurt as the case may be).
Whether or not they are falsely pushing a narrative for a different purpose isn't for a non-expert like me to easily discern.

I find it easier to state the simple part and hope for you guys to break it down.
My OP comes from an honest sense of drawing an equivalency; not some stupid chatroom trick question.
 Speaking of false, there was a real false start on trying to get ANY responses to my simple remarks.
I am genuinely glad when people get into this stuff.  
 

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2024, 12:43 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 12:43 pm

It's not my intention to reframe anything at all.
I merely stated my impression of what's already out there in some minds for the sake of generating discussion.

In some minds, felching is an excellent saturday night.

But the argument for israel is the argument you DESCRIBED as the argument for palestine.

The palestinians are the ethnicity that was actually LIVING THERE when a bunch of europeans moved in and said, God gave us this **** five thousand years ago.

For you to pretend the reverse is true is absolutely a reframe. It's a work of fiction.

And all of this happened in living memory and IS happening right now. RIGHT NOW israel is making the argument you attributed to palestine. Farms that have been in Palestinian families for many generations are being seized TODAY on racial grounds - period, full stop, rocks are hard, water is wet, you get your own opinions but NOT your own facts. **** Haaretz, Netanyahu, The Jerusalem Times, The UN, the American Ambassador to Israel - EVERYBODY acknowledges that settlers are stealing palestinian land in the occupied territories. NO ONE denies it - it is settled fact. Show me ONE PERSON ON EARTH who denies it. 

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2024, 12:43 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 12:43 pm

My OP comes from an honest sense of drawing an equivalency; not some stupid chatroom trick question.

I cannot speak to your MOTIVE - but the trick you pulled in switching the argument is breathtakingly Copperfieldian in the ambition of its scope. I am aware of NO SCRIPTURAL ARGUMENT the palis have EVER made for that land. They just say, "Mother ****, we live here; who do you think you are stealing our land." 

That's it. That's their argument.

If you think you can show some biblical argument THE PALIS have made - give it a go. Because I can sure as **** point to what the jews are saying in five thousand year old texts. 

You go first...

 
 

Cannonpointer » 30 Jun 2024, 1:40 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 1:40 pm

The palestinians are the ethnicity that was actually LIVING THERE when a bunch of europeans moved in and said, God gave us this **** five thousand years ago.


 

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" people, and you know it. 
Even their historians and leaders admit it. 

https://t.co/Lf6KUygmWv" / X

golfboy » 30 Jun 2024, 2:26 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 2:26 pm

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" people, and you know it.

Try to look sharp because I don't want to explain this twice. 

I don't give a **** what you CALL the people whose land is being stolen and who are being dispossessed of their human rights on racial grounds.

The people DOING THE DISPOSSESSING call them palestinians. What israel's bootlickers choose to call the people israel calls Palestinians doesn't mean a **** thing to me. Call them pookie dookie poo if it makes you happy, susan.    

NETANYAHU calls them palestinians. Argue with your master, lady.
 

Cannonpointer » 30 Jun 2024, 2:29 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 2:29 pm

Try to look sharp because I don't want to explain this twice. 

I don't give a **** what you CALL the people whose land is being stolen and who are being dispossessed of their human rights on racial grounds.

The people DOING THE DISPOSSESSING call them palestinians. What israel's bootlickers choose to call the people israel calls Palestinians doesn't mean a **** thing to me. Call them pookie dookie poo if it makes you happy, susan.    

NETANYAHU calls them palestinians. Argue with your master, lady.

I accept your capitulation in the face of facts that are inconvenient to your emotional response.

golfboy » 30 Jun 2024, 2:34 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 2:34 pm

I accept your capitulation in the face of facts that are inconvenient to your emotional response.

Lofl, Suzie - your fight is with the entire world, not me. 

As I said, I do not care WHAT you call them, Netanyahu calls them Palestinians. 

Argue with your master, boi.
 

Cannonpointer » 30 Jun 2024, 1:40 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 1:40 pm

In some minds, felching is an excellent saturday night.

But the argument for israel is the argument you DESCRIBED as the argument for palestine.

The palestinians are the ethnicity that was actually LIVING THERE when a bunch of europeans moved in and said, God gave us this **** five thousand years ago.

For you to pretend the reverse is true is absolutely a reframe. It's a work of fiction.

And all of this happened in living memory and IS happening right now. RIGHT NOW israel is making the argument you attributed to palestine. Farms that have been in Palestinian families for many generations are being seized TODAY on racial grounds - period, full stop, rocks are hard, water is wet, you get your own opinions but NOT your own facts. **** Haaretz, Netanyahu, The Jerusalem Times, The UN, the American Ambassador to Israel - EVERYBODY acknowledges that settlers are stealing palestinian land in the occupied territories. NO ONE denies it - it is settled fact. Show me ONE PERSON ON EARTH who denies it. 

I cannot speak to your MOTIVE - but the trick you pulled in switching the argument is breathtakingly Copperfieldian in the ambition of its scope. I am aware of NO SCRIPTURAL ARGUMENT the palis have EVER made for that land. They just say, "Mother ****, we live here; who do you think you are stealing our land." 

That's it. That's their argument.

If you think you can show some biblical argument THE PALIS have made - give it a go. Because I can sure as **** point to what the jews are saying in five thousand year old texts. 

You go first...

You attack, so I don't read.
I have been through this routine before.

I have nothing to defend so beat away. I'm not trying to convince or even sway anything at all.
Sorry you take things like that, but it's your chatroom way. Oh well.

What I hear, read, see leads me to pose a scenario or two that contradict or confuse me.
I could try to explain that I'm right about the mixed signals I get about both issues. But... huh?
You have people on BOTH sides of BOTH issues claiming moral high ground.

Am I missing something here? Are you INSANE, man?!   

PS I am referring not just to people actually doing the fighting (boots-on-ground and politically).
     I am referring to supporters and detractors like you in chatrooms and talking heads on TV, etc.
     Ever body dun mixeded me up...

DeezerShoove » 30 Jun 2024, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 3:22 pm

You attack, so I don't read.
I have been through this routine before.

I have nothing to defend so beat away. I'm not trying to convince or even sway anything at all.
Sorry you take things like that, but it's your chatroom way. Oh well.

What I hear, read, see leads me to pose a scenario or two that contradict or confuse me.
I could try to explain that I'm right about the mixed signals I get about both issues. But... huh?
You have people on BOTH sides of BOTH issues claiming moral high ground.

Am I missing something here? Are you INSANE, man?! 

You attack, so I don't read. 

I cannot answer any questions you might have asked, since I could not have seen them.

I simply stated actual facts - you victimized reality. 
 

Cannonpointer » 30 Jun 2024, 3:25 pm » wrote: ↑

30 Jun 2024, 3:25 pm

You attack, so I don't read. 

I cannot answer any questions you might have asked, since I could not have seen them.

I simply stated actual facts - you victimized reality.

What did I attack, man? My confusion? Yup.
Are you placing a strawman in my arms?