Liberal Forum

There is always arguing going on between the two most common economic systems: Capitalism and Socialism. The right wing celebrate capitalism and the left wing celebrate socialism etc...The usual rhetoric on both sides. Nothing ever new comes out of the discussions. 

However, don't both sides practice exploitation equally? They just do it in a different context. 

Capitalism cannot survive unless they exploit their workers. It is an inherent property. No employee will ever be paid what they are worth. That is impossible. Capitalism is driven for profit. If an employee is worth $20 an hour, then in order for a company to drive themselves to profit, they have to pay the worker less than $20.00. It's no different than trying to profit off of a product. If a product cost a company $20, then why would they sell it for $20?  They would need to sell it for more, then keep the difference as their profit. Employees are considered expenses, just like the product. In order to make money off them, they cannot pay an employee what they are worth. 

Socialism cannot survive unless personal incentives are stripped away. It promotes the needs of the whole. This suffocates personal motivation. Employees have no incentive to work harder since their basic needs are taken care of. It slows progress and innovation. The fruits of their labor are not being rewarded. An employee can be demanded to work and work and work, but they will never see their sweat being adequately compensated. 

So is there even such a thing as an economic system that doesn't depend on exploitation?
 

I know the OP is too long for BV to read, but what about the rest of you? 

Vegas » 13 Oct 2024, 2:14 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 2:14 pm

I know the OP is too long for BV to read, but what about the rest of you?

I've been an employer most of my life and can tell you if an employee made me money, what I paid him wasn't important. It's been my experience though, most of them are not worth what I was paying them.

 

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 2:50 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 2:50 pm

I've been an employer most of my life and can tell you if an employee made me money, what I paid him wasn't important. It's been my experience though, most of them are not worth what I was paying them.

I'll give you an example, I ran 4 framing crews of 4 men ........it took 140 hours to frame, roof, side, and dry in a particular model house. I went on vacation and left one crew to frame the same house that had to be done. When I got back from vacation my secretary told me the house was done, but 300 hours were turned in on it.

An employee is only as good as his supervision.

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 2:59 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 2:59 pm

I'll give you an example, I ran 4 framing crews of 4 men ........it took 140 hours to frame, roof, side, and dry in a particular model house. I went on vacation and left one crew to frame the same house that had to be done. When I got back from vacation my secretary told me the house was done, but 300 hours were turned in on it.

An employee is only as good as his supervision.

not true. each worker is different. each employer is different. each boss is different. each person going into business is different. all people are different. i have been called upon advising people who were going into business. WOW!!!! +/- 80% would not listen. +/- 10% did good. +/- 10 % did great, and kept asking my advise on expansions. i had spent a few years in sales at a huge company. saw those who went broke, saw those who struggled. no brainier to see why. experiences during life can be more important than books alone.

walkingstick » 13 Oct 2024, 3:22 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 3:22 pm

not true. each worker is different. each employer is different. each boss is different. each person going into business is different. all people are different. i have been called upon advising people who were going into business. WOW!!!! +/- 80% would not listen. +/- 10% did good. +/- 10 % did great, and kept asking my advise on expansions. i had spent a few years in sales at a huge company. saw those who went broke, saw those who struggled. no brainier to see why. experiences during life can be more important than books alone.

I gave you real world experience,  how much truer can it get?

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 2:50 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 2:50 pm

I've been an employer most of my life and can tell you if an employee made me money, what I paid him wasn't important. It's been my experience though, most of them are not worth what I was paying them.

The fact that you made money from their labor proves that they were worth it. Otherwise, how dis you profit? Did you do it all yourself or something? 

Vegas » 13 Oct 2024, 3:37 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 3:37 pm

The fact that you made money from their labor proves that they were worth it. Otherwise, how dis you profit? Did you do it all yourself or something?

I gave you an example.

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 2:59 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 2:59 pm

I'll give you an example, I ran 4 framing crews of 4 men ........it took 140 hours to frame, roof, side, and dry in a particular model house. I went on vacation and left one crew to frame the same house that had to be done. When I got back from vacation my secretary told me the house was done, but 300 hours were turned in on it.

An employee is only as good as his supervision.

Were you paying them decently? I mean back in the old days when I was doing **** jobs like your employees did, I didn't give a **** either. Not because I wasn't good, but because I got paid ****. It wasn't worth it. 

Vegas » 13 Oct 2024, 3:39 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 3:39 pm

Were you paying them decently? I mean back in the old days when I was doing **** jobs like your employees did, I didn't give a **** either. Not because I wasn't good, but because I got paid ****. It wasn't worth it.

Is someone going to measure and cut lumber differently if he makes more or less money......you're working 8 hours a day and if you stay busy,  the time passes faster.

To find a decent worker today, hire a Mexican....they work harder than white people and apreciate it more.

 

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 3:50 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 3:50 pm

To find a decent worker today, hire a Mexican....they work harder than white people and apreciate it more.

This I agree with ^^^

That must really **** with some people's minds, younger generations have nothing to look forward to other than being exploited for the next 50 years.

Get a grip, life isn't fair and it never will be!

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 3:50 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 3:50 pm

Is someone going to measure and cut lumber differently if he makes more or less money......you're working 8 hours a day and if you stay busy,  the time passes faster.

To find a decent worker today, hire a Mexican....they work harder than white people and apreciate it more.

That is generally true!
 

Fuelman » 13 Oct 2024, 4:05 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 4:05 pm

That must really **** with some people's minds, younger generations have nothing to look forward to other than being exploited for the next 50 years.

Get a grip, life isn't fair and it never will be!

 "exploited" is very subjective...
 

Without criminals you would not have Dems. Crush crime, criminals and Dems.

Vegas » 13 Oct 2024, 10:32 am » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 10:32 am

There is always arguing going on between the two most common economic systems: Capitalism and Socialism. The right wing celebrate capitalism and the left wing celebrate socialism etc...The usual rhetoric on both sides. Nothing ever new comes out of the discussions. 

However, don't both sides practice exploitation equally? They just do it in a different context. 

Capitalism cannot survive unless they exploit their workers. It is an inherent property. No employee will ever be paid what they are worth. That is impossible. Capitalism is driven for profit. If an employee is worth $20 an hour, then in order for a company to drive themselves to profit, they have to pay the worker less than $20.00. It's no different than trying to profit off of a product. If a product cost a company $20, then why would they sell it for $20?  They would need to sell it for more, then keep the difference as their profit. Employees are considered expenses, just like the product. In order to make money off them, they cannot pay an employee what they are worth. 

Socialism cannot survive unless personal incentives are stripped away. It promotes the needs of the whole. This suffocates personal motivation. Employees have no incentive to work harder since their basic needs are taken care of. It slows progress and innovation. The fruits of their labor are not being rewarded. An employee can be demanded to work and work and work, but they will never see their sweat being adequately compensated. 

So is there even such a thing as an economic system that doesn't depend on exploitation?
 

When people using it are completely honest about evolving in plain sight. Humanity hasn't had invented an honest reality yet. People that choose to ignore the one thing that sustains equal time alive now, every alternate reality operates by the same narrative inside out training brains to define life outside their own time equally alive in now.

Vegas » 13 Oct 2024, 10:32 am » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 10:32 am

There is always arguing going on between the two most common economic systems: Capitalism and Socialism. The right wing celebrate capitalism and the left wing celebrate socialism etc...The usual rhetoric on both sides. Nothing ever new comes out of the discussions. 

However, don't both sides practice exploitation equally? They just do it in a different context. 

Capitalism cannot survive unless they exploit their workers. It is an inherent property. No employee will ever be paid what they are worth. That is impossible. Capitalism is driven for profit. If an employee is worth $20 an hour, then in order for a company to drive themselves to profit, they have to pay the worker less than $20.00. It's no different than trying to profit off of a product. If a product cost a company $20, then why would they sell it for $20?  They would need to sell it for more, then keep the difference as their profit. Employees are considered expenses, just like the product. In order to make money off them, they cannot pay an employee what they are worth. 

Socialism cannot survive unless personal incentives are stripped away. It promotes the needs of the whole. This suffocates personal motivation. Employees have no incentive to work harder since their basic needs are taken care of. It slows progress and innovation. The fruits of their labor are not being rewarded. An employee can be demanded to work and work and work, but they will never see their sweat being adequately compensated. 

So is there even such a thing as an economic system that doesn't depend on exploitation?

your only option is to have a state that actually does in good faith care about the prosperity and fair treatment of the people. A family can do that often enough, because they see themselves as somehow part of the same organism because they are so close genetically. And in fact a family that does not show altruism or respect for each other would fail at natural selection, so our instincts are already tuned for survival.

By the same token, a state of an extended family (race, basically), is capable of expressing true altruism. A german ruling over germans, because they are german and for the prosperity of germans, is quite capable of being fair in good faith and does not wish to sacrifice germans for the sake of his individual profit. Our instincts are simply not built that way.

note that survival instrincts (and caring for your child is connected to your own multigenerational survival) are even more fundamental a motivation than money.

In a diverse country, however, exploitation is inevitable. 
 
 
 

FOS » 14 Oct 2024, 2:04 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Oct 2024, 2:04 pm

your only option is to have a state that actually does in good faith care about the prosperity and fair treatment of the people.
 

What is the significant physical differences between socially designed fair economic outcomes and equally incoming ancestries let adapting in space daily each uniquely alive now any time they are alive conceived to decomposed in their exact ancestral positions by lineage and generation gap lived or alive?

Social rank isn't achieved by ancestral position in one's ancestral lineage. Great great grandparent generation was always alive prior to a great grandparent generation, and so on.

RebelGator » 13 Oct 2024, 3:50 pm » wrote: ↑

13 Oct 2024, 3:50 pm

Is someone going to measure and cut lumber differently if he makes more or less money......you're working 8 hours a day and if you stay busy,  the time passes faster.

To find a decent worker today, hire a Mexican....they work harder than white people and apreciate it more.

@EDC4ALL!   believes you need to read and write English to build a house.

do you pay Mexicans and whites the same wage?
You pay market value for the labor, correct?

@GHETTO BLASTER  believes everyone that performs manual labor should live amongst doctors and lawyers. GB is stuck in 1952.

JohnEdgarSlowHorses » 14 Oct 2024, 3:38 pm » wrote: ↑

14 Oct 2024, 3:38 pm

@GHETTO BLASTER  believes everyone that performs manual labor should live amongst doctors and lawyers. GB is stuck in 1952.

Our society was a better place back when the Middle Class had more wage earners who could afford to own a home, have the wife be a full time mother, more wage earners with full pensions and when family doctors and medical expenses in general were more affordable. Yep, there was much less "distance" between THE HAVES and the HAVE NOTS.
But....
Most of us here "get" that you spent your young queer life getting the **** beaten out of you by your "straight" father and by all of the normal "MAGA" type kids on your block. 
It's only natural that people like you would take great glee in watching America go down the tubes and transformed into a single party loyal, 80 IQ, government services dependent society that is roughly 1/3 Black, 1/3 Brown and 1/3 White / Asian.
It's understandable that people like you who are insanely jealous of happy, healthy normal folks would want to see Americana destroyed
The  old saying..."MISERY LOVES COMPANY" is absolutely perfect to describe  emotionally damaged queers like you.